Thread: So I guess everyone can become an Excel MVP these days

Not trying to complain or anything, but recently I have been following and researching the competency and credibility of couple of Excel MVPs, and to my surprise, their knowledge/expertise in MS Excel are no where near an expert, but they do make time and effort to answer people questions (when the question can be answered easily)

I always thought to becoming an MVP, one must be knowledge and expert in the application (Excel, Access, C++, SQL, etc), and at the same time make great contributions to the community.

I have been work really hard trying to becoming an expert in MS Excel, but never I dream to become an MVP in the "tools" I use. Now I see people who became a MVP because they answer tons of easily questions but without having the level of expertise. It is kinda discouraging and hard broken to be honest.

This is the wrong forum (Excel general) for that epistle!

Can't find changing category section in Advanced edit.

Originally Posted by JieJenn

Can't find changing category section in Advanced edit.

I took care of the move for you.

@JieJenn:
"...[I'm] Not trying to complain or anything, but recently I have been following and researching the competency and credibility of couple of Excel MVPs ..."

Reply:
1. What prompted you to "follow and research" these MVP's?
2. What standards are you using to evaluate "competency"? Who has authority to issue such standards?
3. CREDIBILITY?? I don't understand. What has belief got to do with Excel formulas and macros? They either work or they don't. It's not a matter of opinion. How do you read someone's answer to a question and say you don't believe it will work? Where are your examples JieJenn?

@JieJenn:
"... and to my surprise, their knowledge/expertise in MS Excel are no where near (?) [an] expert..."

Reply:
1. How do you judge someone else's knowledge base? Did they fail to correctly answer questions that were put to them directly?
2. What are the criteria for "expert"?
3. How/when did your knowledge of Excel become so complete, so perfect, so excellent that such a judgement of someone else's competency is warranted?

@JieJenn:
"... but they do [make] time and effort to answer people questions (when the question can be answered easily) ..."

Reply:
1. This forum is made up of volunteers who give their time freely, at their own convenience, for fun and recreation.
2. How do you know that these MVP's only answer the so-called easy questions?
3. What gives you the right to say that someone should/must answer a specific question?

* How dare you determine, on you own, that because someone did not answer a question, it is because he did not know the answer, hum?

There are members of the forum who are not what you would call experts, but when they see a question they say, "I know how to do that". So they answer the question and help someone to do his job.

Or maybe you think that only MVP's are allowed to answer questions, and then only those questions which require a PH.D in Physics + engineering + mathematics + brain surgery. Indeed!

What are the criteria for "easy questions"? I suspect that they are the one's to which you know the answer.

@JieJenn:
"... I always thought to becoming an MVP, one must be knowledge [sic - should be knowlegable] and expert in the application (Excel, Access, C++, SQL, etc)..."

Reply:
You seem to think that the forum is giving MVP certificates to members based on the number of posts one makes. Your "research" should have informed you that Microsoft has the right and authority to grant MVP Certifications for their products. (I have an MSCE and each test cost me $100 (I think there were six at the time)).


@JieJenn:
"... and at the same time make great[!] contributions to the community. ..."

Reply:
1. Define community.
2. There are, no doubt, several thousand Excel MVP's in the world. Most do their (paid) jobs and go home in the evenings and never log on to help forums to offer (free) help and advice to anyone. Not to mention those "GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS" what ever that might mean.

@JieJenn:
"... I have been work really hard trying to becoming an expert in MS Excel, but never I dream to become an MVP in the "tools" I use.

Reply:
1. >> I have been work really hard trying to becoming << shoud be: I have been working very hard to become...
2. >> but never I dream to become << should be: but, I have never dreamt of becoming...
3. >> in the "tools" I use << Huh??

@JieJenn:
"... Now I see people who became a MVP because they answer tons of easily questions but without having the level of expertise. ..."

Reply:
1. Presumption: This seems to be based on the notion that the forum is issuing certifications; and, that quantity is the sole qualification (geez). An error in logic and fact as explained previously.
2. >> tons << a bad metaphor in this case, though, unfortunately, expected.
3. >> easily questions << should be: easily answered questions. Again, what is the standard for an easy answer?
4. Should questions requiring only a simple or easy answer be ignored? Or maybe the answer should be diliberately convoluted and complicated in order to impress the questioner with the knowlege of the swelled head of the one who answers?

@JieJenn:
It is kinda discouraging and hard broken to be honest.

Reply:
>> kinda << bad english
>> hard broken << should be HEART BREAKING
----------------
How sad that JieJenn seems to have such an exhaulted and exaggerated opinion of his/her own abilities that it leads him/her to question the motives and abilities of members who only want to help others for the sheer fun of it. It is painfully evident that he/she reads through the daily posts calling every question and answer offered simplistic and idiotic. And all because it is not the answer he/she would give or expect. Actually, I'm surprised that JieJenn doesn't post in order to correct all the incompetence and foolishness posted.

Originally Posted by protonLeah

@JieJenn:
"...[I'm] Not trying to complain or anything, but recently I have been following and researching the competency and credibility of couple of Excel MVPs ..."

Reply:
1. What prompted you to "follow and research" these MVP's?
2. What standards are you using to evaluate "competency"? Who has authority to issue such standards?
3. CREDIBILITY?? I don't understand. What has belief got to do with Excel formulas and macros? They either work or they don't. It's not a matter of opinion. How do you read someone's answer to a question and say you don't believe it will work? Where are your examples JieJenn?

@JieJenn:
"... and to my surprise, their knowledge/expertise in MS Excel are no where near (?) [an] expert..."

Reply:
1. How do you judge someone else's knowledge base? Did they fail to correctly answer questions that were put to them directly?
2. What are the criteria for "expert"?
3. How/when did your knowledge of Excel become so complete, so perfect, so excellent that such a judgement of someone else's competency is warranted?

@JieJenn:
"... but they do [make] time and effort to answer people questions (when the question can be answered easily) ..."

Reply:
1. This forum is made up of volunteers who give their time freely, at their own convenience, for fun and recreation.
2. How do you know that these MVP's only answer the so-called easy questions?
3. What gives you the right to say that someone should/must answer a specific question?

* How dare you determine, on you own, that because someone did not answer a question, it is because he did not know the answer, hum?

There are members of the forum who are not what you would call experts, but when they see a question they say, "I know how to do that". So they answer the question and help someone to do his job.

Or maybe you think that only MVP's are allowed to answer questions, and then only those questions which require a PH.D in Physics + engineering + mathematics + brain surgery. Indeed!

What are the criteria for "easy questions"? I suspect that they are the one's to which you know the answer.

@JieJenn:
"... I always thought to becoming an MVP, one must be knowledge [sic - should be knowlegable] and expert in the application (Excel, Access, C++, SQL, etc)..."

Reply:
You seem to think that the forum is giving MVP certificates to members based on the number of posts one makes. Your "research" should have informed you that Microsoft has the right and authority to grant MVP Certifications for their products. (I have an MSCE and each test cost me $100 (I think there were six at the time)).


@JieJenn:
"... and at the same time make great[!] contributions to the community. ..."

Reply:
1. Define community.
2. There are, no doubt, several thousand Excel MVP's in the world. Most do their (paid) jobs and go home in the evenings and never log on to help forums to offer (free) help and advice to anyone. Not to mention those "GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS" what ever that might mean.

@JieJenn:
"... I have been work really hard trying to becoming an expert in MS Excel, but never I dream to become an MVP in the "tools" I use.

Reply:
1. >> I have been work really hard trying to becoming << shoud be: I have been working very hard to become...
2. >> but never I dream to become << should be: but, I have never dreamt of becoming...
3. >> in the "tools" I use << Huh??

@JieJenn:
"... Now I see people who became a MVP because they answer tons of easily questions but without having the level of expertise. ..."

Reply:
1. Presumption: This seems to be based on the notion that the forum is issuing certifications; and, that quantity is the sole qualification (geez). An error in logic and fact as explained previously.
2. >> tons << a bad metaphor in this case, though, unfortunately, expected.
3. >> easily questions << should be: easily answered questions. Again, what is the standard for an easy answer?
4. Should questions requiring only a simple or easy answer be ignored? Or maybe the answer should be diliberately convoluted and complicated in order to impress the questioner with the knowlege of the swelled head of the one who answers?

@JieJenn:
It is kinda discouraging and hard broken to be honest.

Reply:
>> kinda << bad english
>> hard broken << should be HEART BREAKING
----------------
How sad that JieJenn seems to have such an exhaulted and exaggerated opinion of his/her own abilities that it leads him/her to question the motives and abilities of members who only want to help others for the sheer fun of it. It is painfully evident that he/she reads through the daily posts calling every question and answer offered simplistic and idiotic. And all because it is not the answer he/she would give or expect. Actually, I'm surprised that JieJenn doesn't post in order to correct all the incompetence and foolishness posted.

You're right.

I think @JieJenn asks some interesting questions that (s)he doesn't know the answer to. I see no major issue with asking "why is someone awarded a certain title and others are not?" I remember reading on the MS MVP site how they have a process in choosing MVPs. It's not a hap hazard draw, but built on merits and the input from current MVPs (the peers). Not every MVP is proficient in all aspects of Excel. Some are obviously masters of forumlas, others of charts, while others do wonders with vba. I don't think that @JieJenn is saying that he is better than the average MVP and therefore is questioning why (s)he is not given such a status. That's why I think that Ben's response was a little overkill.

Here on this forum, we recently had a discussion on the point system, especially negative reps, and what the rules are for becoming a Guru. There were lots of opinions and it was a respectable discussion of different points of view. I don't think anyone should be penalized for their thoughts, but rather their actions. If @JieJenn questions the abilities of a person titled as an MVP then it either means that the process of chosing MVP is not transparent enough or @JieJenn is uninformed about the process. If there was a way to check 'why' someone was chosen then anyone could guage themselves accordingly. In a few weeks, my status on this forum is automatically expected to be upgraded to forum guru, not because I am some Excel Wizard but because I will have fullfilled the criteria. Does that mean I am at the same skill level as Ben or some of the other forum gurus? Short answer... not by a long shot. At the end of the day, we are all here to help and be helped. Titles don't really mean much...

JieJenn,

please do not edit your posts when they have received replies. It breaks the logical flow of the discussion.

I have restored the original text of your thread.

Just in case anyone is interested, here is what Microsoft has to say about "How to Become an MVP"

Congrats to all the past and current MVP.

Originally Posted by abousetta

I think @JieJenn asks some interesting questions that (s)he doesn't know the answer to.

Really? I can't see any questions at all, just an attack on a couple of unnamed MVPs, and MS' selection process by implication, without any justification given.

I don't think that @JieJenn is saying that he is better than the average MVP and therefore is questioning why (s)he is not given such a status.

To me the last part of the post sounded like precisely that, whether or not it was intended as such.

That's why I think that Ben's response was a little overkill.

Agreed. If I were still moderating, I'd probably have deleted most of it.

Titles don't really mean much...

Also agreed. Being a 'forum guru' or 'MVP' doesn't make you any better than you were before, though it is always nice to be recognised for your efforts.

I agree that this thread should never have been started in the first place, and if it was an attempt at gathering insight, it was poorly constructed. Having said that, I am not disputing the great support MVPs provide all of us (title or not), but at the same time MS has done a pretty good job of keeping a cloak and dagger approach to their decisions. Reading the link I provided above doesn't add much light on the subject except that an MVP might be everything from someone who is a community leader to an author of books on a particular subject to person who frequently lectures at (or leads) conferences. They themselves admit that the process is kept relatively secret and very flexible. Even the MVPs' individual pages are very short on information on what sets them apart from the rest. If I were an uninformed person (which I most certainly am) about the merits of each individual MVP, then how am I expected to know what accomplishments each MVP has done over the past year. Even a small list of accomplishments like:

* Posted over 1000 responses on community sites
* Moderates 4 website dedicated to helping with people solve Excel-based problems
* Teaches 3 classes a week for under-privaleged individuals for free
* etc.

when someone reads that then they can see how they stack up against these MVPs. Currently, the one way I can tell what an MVP's merits are is by being in a forum that they post on.

Finally, since the MVP website does not contain the screen name used by the individuals then its often hard to make the connection.

In closing, I am all for titles as long as its clear what they mean and how someone can one day attain them. I am all for recognition (and if the MVP committee is listening) I have no objection to receiving this wonder title one day as it would go nicely along with my other titles.

I think you are missing the point. MVP is an award given in recognition of contributions, not a title or rank - it should not be an end of itself, nor is it a competition. The fact that one person is an MVP and another is not does not mean that one is better than the other - there are many incredible Excel talents who are not MVPs. I suspect that part of the reason for the secrecy is to avoid precisely this - people saying well I have 100 more posts than him so why am I not an MVP?

Well how is someone to know what the contributions are if they are kept secret? Of course since MS awards it then they can give it whomever they want to, but then what does it really mean if we don't know the details of the path taken to reach it. I have worked in organizations where it wasn't exactly clear why one person is promoted over another, and this secrecy didn't exactly bread love and commitment to the company. How do you recognize someone's work and publicly give them an award for it but then claim that the details of that work is secret.

Again, it's an award, NOT a promotion. It's more like an employee of the month (or year, since it's annual) - do you expect to see a catalogue of accomplishments next to one of those?
Also, the contributions are not in any way secret - only the evaluation process is.