How about the admins/mods don't post in closed threads?

[Croweater]

So an admin posts the following pathetic response on a closed thread, where I have no right of reply.
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"I know this thread is closed, but...

If you cant post examples, Im not wasting my time on your apparent unfounded accusations.

I see no problem at all with posting a different solution to an already answered question - everyone has their own view of the same situation, and just because an answer was provided, doesnt mean it's the only 1...or even the best 1. Some people also like to try their own way of solving a problem, and can then use the initial solution to cross-check themself.

in closing, we have 100 000's of members on this forum, and none make the complaints that you make. Now, while im not saying your complaints are groundless, wouldnt you think that if it was a big concern, others would raise their voices too? "
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1. I'm not asking you to 'waste your time looking for apparent unfounded accusations', I'm suggesting a way the forum could be improved by removing posts which are CLEARLY the same.
2. I too "see no problem at all with posting a DIFFERENT solution". How many times do I have to say, I'm talking about solutions which ARE THE SAME?
3. "...your apparent unfounded accusations". "... im not saying your complaints are groundless". LOL. Make your mind up!
4. "...none make the complaints that you make". Probably because you'd ban them, like you will me now. When will the penny drop that this is a "SUGGESTION FOR IMPROVEMENT", just like the thread title says?

If you don't like it, I really could not give a FF.

[AliGW]

@Croweater - it would be very helpful if you could find ONE concrete example of the plagiarism to which you refer.

As I said in your previous thread, if you would care to use the REPORT POST button when you find such plagiarism to flag it to us, then I would be happy to follow it up and, if necessary, challenge the perpertrator. I don't think anybody can say fairer than this.

[Croweater]

Like I said Ali, I'm not trawling through posts to find examples. I don't have the time, and I'm not asking you to either. I don't know how many times I have to say this...It was a SUGGESTION for future posts!

But I will highlight it, the next time I come across an example like I'm talking about...but don't be surprised if the person I am saying has posted something the same as someone else, gets upset about it!
I've already been told to avoid confrontation.

If you don't like it, don't want to do it or think it's a bad suggestion, as I said I could not give a FF.

As I keep saying (until I am blue in the face), it was merely a suggestion to delete posts (in the FUTURE) which are (logically) very similar or contain the same ideas/code snippets as ones already posted.

[AliGW]

I understand that it is a suggestion.

The only way that we can tackle these things is if members use the REPORT POST button to flag these issues. As you understand already, we can't go looking for issues (and we don't) as we simply don't have the capacity to do so on a busy forum.

I will look at threads that interest me. If I happen to spot an issue that needs addressing, I will address it. Otherwise we rely on the membership reporting issues to us in the expected way, as outlined above, so that we can address them.

So, in summary: next time you see such an issue, report the post in question and one of us will take a look. And no, you should not tackle it yourself - that's what we are (not!) paid to do.

I really hope this makes our position clear. We rely heavily on members reporting issues to us: if you don't, we won't necessarily find them.

which are (logically) very similar

They would have to be IDENTICAL syntactically for us to tackle them, by the way.

[Croweater]

Yep. Fair enough Ali.

I don't like using the 'report post' option for a number of reasons, not least of which is that I don't want to appear to be a 'grass'. That is why I take up any 'issue' I have with a post head on and up front in the forum.

'Report Post' also has connotations (to me) of something a bit more more 'sinister' (abuse/foul language/ or worse) than someone using someone else's post, whether intentional or not.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. At last I think I found someone who understands what I was trying to say.

[AliGW]

I don't like using the 'report post' option for a number of reasons, not least of which is that I don't want to appear to be a 'grass'.

Nobody other than mods and admins know about reported posts, so it IS the correct way to proceed. We never disclose the name of reporters.

That is why I take up any 'issue' I have with a post head on and up front in the forum.

This you should never do, as it is quite the wrong way to go about it. Tackling these issues is our 'job'. You can only make yourself unpopular with other members by tackling it yourself, and in the end it's YOU who ends up being reported.

Have a nice day!

[Croweater]

Yeah..again fair enough. The only thing I would say is that I really don't care if I make myself unpopular with other members. If I think something needs saying...I will say it.

[AliGW]

I am telling you now NOT to do so. That's an order. OK?

Seriously, don't: you will only get yourself into trouble by doing so. If you care about your membership here and don't want to get banned again, mind your own business and let us deal with it by reporting it. Don't even be tempted to stick your oar in: nobody will thank you for doing so.

[6StringJazzer]

I am not familiar with the thread you are using as an example, but I think you have a valid point that Mods/Admins should avoid posting to a closed thread in such a way that stirs things up and elicits a response but no response is possible.

There is an exception where I think it's justified, where the Mod is explaining why the thread is closed. Sometimes this is because of unacceptable behavior among the participants, and the Mod has the last word. There is no point in perpetuating the same behavior that got the thread closed.

[Pepe Le Mokko]

@Croweater - it would be very helpful if you could find ONE concrete example of the plagiarism to which you refer.

If I understand correctly ( English not being my mother tongue), this is about providing the same solution as one already been proposed?
I did that more than once when another member posted his/her solution while I was working on my own ( which happened to be the same). I don't necessarily refresh before posting...
This also tends to happen with members who are in " Hidden mode". One thinks one's the only one working on the subject ( so, no problems), but it is not the case.

[bsalv]

@Pepe Le Mokko and off topic,
So you can see everybody who is looking at a certain topic at that moment ?? How ? (other then "who's online", because that's a long list)

[TMS]

bsalv: look at the Thread Information below the Quick Reply box.

It will typically say something like "There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (1 members and 1 guests)
TMS *

[bsalv]

thanks TMS, i never looked at that one

[TMS]

You're welcome.

[XL-Dennis]

From my point of view:

Croweater:
An advice from a person who have been running his own Excel Q&A forum, former moderator of several forums, former highly valuable member but also former PIA member, former banned member et al. Have also been on the dark side, i e former Linux warrior.

Hit the right button and move on. You are not a member of the admin group here. In other words, you will not get want you want.

To the admin:

Having power like you have come with much responsibilitet and very good judgement. I have already noticed some failure to manage it properly here on EF.

Avoid as much as possible to close threads. If it happen take the time to explain it carefully.

Never close a thread if you add something to it that is beyond your duties and which is part of the subject that op started. If that is the case I strongly suggest that you reopen it and allow other members reply.

This thread is a consequence of poor judgement in the first place. Try to learn something of it.

Finally, don't be to active in your duties and most of the time it's better to step back and let see how it goes then being the elephant in the porcelain shop (it sounds better in my nstive language).

The above is *only* based of nearly +30 years online community service and I can see both sides of the coin.

Thanks for reading it and take care everyone

[6StringJazzer]

From my point of view:

Good thoughts, thanks for sharing your experience.

the elephant in the porcelain shop (it sounds better in my nstive language).

In English we say "bull in a china shop" so yours sounds just as good!

[Croweater]

Yep. The only thing I would add is that it's not what "I want". I really don't care what the admins do or do not do with it.

This started out as a suggestion for improvement, which, as the thread has that as a title, I thought they might be open to. It has grown legs from there.

What I respond to is complete BS like 'we have 100 000's of members on this forum, and none make the complaints that you make'... or words like that on a closed thread , giving me no right of reply.

1. I am NOT complaining. As I have said many times here, it is a suggestion for improvement. If you don't like it, I don't care. I certainly won't be making any more suggestions.

2. Of those 100,000 members 99.9% of them are people with a problem who want a solution, make one post (sometimes more), don't even respond with a simple 'thanks' to the solutions offered and are therefore not likely to notice very similar solutions. I reckon there are less than 50 people (my opinion only, not based around any statistical collection) who REGULARLY respond to user problems and issues, so don't distort the facts to make some sort of point against me, when I am merely making a suggestion to improve the forum. If you don't want/like/can't handle suggestions, then don't ask for them.

[FDibbins]

If you really dont care, then stop keep flapping your gums about it - you have made your "suggestion", now drop it and move on

Im sorry I posted on a closed thread, but I stand by my comment that you complain...ooops I meant make suggestions...more than any other member.

Also, keep in mind that any valid suggestions you make tend to get lost in the clutter of the rest of your post.

XL-Dennis thanks for the suggestions we will take them under consideration

[Croweater]

I DON'T care what you do with my suggestion...I DO care when you make outrageous, untrue and inflammatory statements like "you complain...ooops I meant make suggestions...more than any other member".

I think you'll find this is the first (and last) time I have posted in this 'suggestions' forum! LOL

[XL-Dennis]

You're welcome 🙂
We learn something new every day Thanks!

[Croweater]

Ok...a few of you are asking for examples, here is a classic.

https://www.excelforum.com/excel-pro...procedure.html

Apart from the first response to the OP's question (which was off the mark) the rest of the responses are basically the same! There is no other 'added value' in addition to what is clearly stated in post #3.

One response even points the OP's to TWO OTHER threads in which ALL the responses basically say the same!

The suggestion in the thread that was closed, is merely saying that this is a bit of overkill, and if you are concerned by the clutter of 'unnecessary' quoting of past posts, then maybe you should be equally concerned by the clutter in threads such as this one.

That's it. End of Story. Unless you want more examples, I'm done with wasting any more time on it.

[6StringJazzer]

#2 as you said, off the mark
#3 suggests "something else" causing it, assuming this means other code not shown in post #1
#4 amplifies post #3, specifically suggesting stray characters outside the sub
#5 Follow-up to #4 with links to concrete examples of how this problem was solved by others
#6 Suggesting there is more code that not posted, which has already been noted in three posts
#7 Code tag violation

#2 is just plain wrong. Only #6 repeats what has already been said. Posts 4 & 5 give useful information to expand on prior responses.

This is typical of what I see not only on Excel Forum but other tech forums and in fact forums of every kind. People get itchy to jump in without thoroughly reading what has already been posted. This just happens and is what you get with a public discussion board. There is no plagiarism evident here, just carelessness. We can't really make a rule about this because we just don't have the resources to enforce it. Multiple posts offering the same solution is not the worst thing we see here.

[AliGW]

This simply is NOT plagiarism, which is what I had understood the issue to be.

As Jeff has said, there is nothing we can do about this, and there is nothing wrong with amplification and follow-up suggestions. I would not even have batted an eyelid at this thread. Post #6 adds nothing, but it isn't a repeated solution.

I thought you were talking about exact replica solutions copied from an earlier post and presented as the member's own suggestion without anything extra being added. There is none of that in this thtead.

[Croweater]

Look I know I said I'm not wasting any more time on it but there are some things here that (IMHO) need addressing.

Quote:"This is typical of what I see not only on Excel Forum but other tech forums and in fact forums of every kind."
Response: 'This is the way it's always been done and the way everyone else does it', has never been and never will be a valid response to a suggested improvement!

Quote: "Multiple posts offering the same solution is not the worst thing we see here".
Response: Agreed. The worst thing I've ever seen on this forum was highlighted in the second part of my original suggestion. However, I think it would be an improvement if people didn't say the same thing as someone else, which is why I made the 'suggestion for improvement'

Quote:"We can't really make a rule about this because we just don't have the resources to enforce it".
Response: I'm not asking you to make a rule. 'Unnecessary' quoting is not a rule either, but it doesn't stop mods from removing the quotes!

Quote: This simply is NOT plagiarism, which is what I had understood the issue to be.
Response: Plagiarism does NOT have to be an identical copy. It can also mean restating something already presented by someone else in a different way, so by definition it actually IS plagiarism.

Quote: "As Jeff has said, there is nothing we can do about this".
Response: Fair enough. If that had been said as the second post of that last thread (the one that was closed) I think we could have all saved a lot of time.

Quote:"I thought you were talking about exact replica solutions copied from an earlier post ".
Response: As pointed out above, it doesn't have to be a 'replica', although there has been those as well. However, my original suggestion covered this type of post as well, where we have half a dozen posts on the same thread, which, while not being identical, basically say the same thing.


In summary. I get it. My suggestion will not be implemented, for a number of reasons. No skin off my nose and hopefully, I don't have to clarify this any more.

[Glenn Kennedy]

I've not commented on this, to date, but wil do so now.

Personally, I think it is nigh on impossible to distinguish bewtween similar solutions, developed in parallel; identical solutions; plagiarism; and improving tweaks to previously offered solutions. I just can't get too excited about it. Does it REALLY matter that much? IMHO it's a good way to learn... seeing that there are many ways to skin a cat.

I do agree that non-rules do not require moderation.

[6StringJazzer]

I'm not asking you to make a rule.

What are you asking us to do?

'This is the way it's always been done and the way everyone else does it', has never been and never will be a valid response to a suggested improvement!

You can't fight human nature. In the DC Metro system it is common courtesy on an escalator to stay to the right if you are standing, so people can walk up on the left. But it's too trivial a transgression for the police to apprehend you if you don't. Most people comply, some don't. That's just the way people are. You can only take enforcement so far.

Plagiarism does NOT have to be an identical copy. It can also mean restating something already presented by someone else in a different way, so by definition it actually IS plagiarism.

The definition of plagiarism is copying someone else's work. Independently coming up with the same idea as someone else is not plagiarism. Joseph Swan invented the light bulb in the same year as Edison but he wasn't copying Edison; they were both awarded patents. Many of the answers on this forum are not unique, original ideas--they are straightforward solutions that more than one person can develop. Especially in this case there is almost certainly one cause of the problem evident from the OP and two people recognized this and offered different angles for troubleshooting. (The third one may also have recognized it but didn't help much.)

'Unnecessary' quoting is not a rule either, but it doesn't stop mods from removing the quotes!

There is not systematic review of every post by Moderators. We do things like remove quotes if we happen to be participating in the thread.

[Croweater]

Quote: "What are you asking us to do?".
Response: Well I was asking you to consider a suggestion of removing identical (or very similar) posts. It was you (et al ) that decided to make it bigger than Ben Hur by eliciting my response to ridiculous counter requests (which you/mods stated you wasn't prepared to do yourselves) and various other misleading statements and falsehoods about me personally, rather than the suggestion.

Quote: "In the DC Metro system ..."
Response: Quite what this has got to do with anything remotely related to walking up escalators on the DC metro is...well...just a sign of the ludicrous level you and some of the other responders have dragged it.

Quote: "The definition of plagiarism is copying someone else's work"
Response: No. That's YOUR definition. I prefer the dictionary definition. Look it up. It goes a bit deeper than that including "Presenting work or IDEAS from another source as your own..". My suggestion was to remove these and those posts that are very similar, to reduce 'clutter', which appears to be the goal of some mods when editing other people's posts.

Quote: "There is not systematic review of every post by Moderators. We do things like remove quotes if we happen to be participating in the thread."
Response: Hallelujah! And all I was asking in the suggestion was to do the same with identical (or very similar) posts.

Look, for once and for all. It was just a suggestion. Some admins/moderators appear to have taken it personally (which it wasn't meant to be) and made what I considered to be unacceptable responses, which made this grow into the monster it has now become.

You have made your points. I have made mine. I don't care that you are not accepting my recommendation. I won't be making any other suggestions, so rest easy.

What I won't do is allow misleading statements about me or anything I put up here, to go unchallenged.

[Glenn Kennedy]

Quote: "There is not systematic review of every post by Moderators. We do things like remove quotes if we happen to be participating in the thread."
Response: Hallelujah! And all I was asking in the suggestion was to do the same with identical (or very similar) posts.

If that day ever dawns, I will immediately cease being a Mod and leave the forum.

[Croweater]

If what day ever dawns? 'The day there is a systematic review of every post', 'the day we remove quotes' or 'the day you are asked to remove identical posts (if you see them)'?

One of those 3 is already happening and the other two are never going to happen, so I can't see the point of your post.

[Glenn Kennedy]

I thgought it was obvious... But...

If your suggestion "to do the same with identical (or very similar) posts" is ever adopted, I'm off, gone forever. See Post 25.

Removing multiple posts (which may be similar by accident) in order to catch one copy-cat is heavy handedness, gone mad.

[Croweater]

Well for such a Drama Queen type reaction to a mere suggestion, it's mind blowing you didn't have more to say early in the piece!

You've already said you don't delete 'unnecessary quotes' so why would you bother deleting identical posts and what difference would it make to you anyway? Hilarious!

And when has 'heavy handedness' been a problem for admins on this site???

[Glenn Kennedy]

Whatever...

[6StringJazzer]

Quote: "In the DC Metro system ..."
Response: Quite what this has got to do with anything remotely related to walking up escalators on the DC metro is...well...just a sign of the ludicrous level you and some of the other responders have dragged it.

The analogy is that some behavior is harmful, and some is merely annoying. To some people. For us this is not a paid job, it's a volunteer effort we do for free and we're not going to go around policing behaviors that are merely annoying to some people.

Quote: "The definition of plagiarism is copying someone else's work"
Response: No. That's YOUR definition. I prefer the dictionary definition. Look it up. It goes a bit deeper than that including "Presenting work or IDEAS from another source as your own..". My suggestion was to remove these and those posts that are very similar, to reduce 'clutter', which appears to be the goal of some mods when editing other people's posts.

My dictionary says "taking someone else's work or ideas....". Multiple people independently come up with the same thing all the time. I've seen this happen with people that post identical solutions at literally within seconds of each other. And everyone laughs it off as "great minds think alike."

I don't know why such a thing bothers you so much. It's not like someone is publishing a paper you wrote and putting their name on it. It's just a free Excel forum. Thanks for the suggestion.

[AliGW]

I think this is all getting ridiculously over-egged.

I agree that identical answers that are clearly being used for post-building purposes should be removed, but when the perpetrator is banned, that will happen automatically.

Otherwise, you cannot prove intent: removing someone's response would be implying plagiarism, and in most cases here, that won't have been the intent.

I think we should ALL draw a line under this now. I have no issue with the suggestion having been made.

[FDibbins]

Agreed. Croweater has made his suggestion, it has been debated to a stalemate.

I too feel that this discussion has come to an end and that this thread can now quite justifiably be closed.