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Minding One's Ps & Qs

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    Forum Moderator AliGW's Avatar
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    Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Is it just me, or is there an increasing number of our membership failing to observe common courtesies? I am seeing more and more [SOLVED] tags appearing with no nod to the help that was offered in the thread itself, and I am also noticing that the language used by some members is very demanding: "I need this", "I want that". And when help is offered: "Doesn't work", or "No, that doesn't do what I want".

    Have "please" and "thank you" been removed from the vernacular? Is this a societal thing? It's very disheartening indeed.
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Or are you just "Old School"?? I thinks it's bigger than societal (which I'd interpret as being applicable to a society) as we play to a global community. Maybe it's simply a language thing. I suspect that a very large proportion of users (including those from UK/USA) do NOT have English as their first language. Or... maybe that's just me being "Old School", expecting a basic understanding of grammar from the inhabitants of English speaking countries. Not that I can complain about spelling, especially when I'm typing in the gloomy period, just after dawn, without any lights on...
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    You're behind the times. Forums are no longer provide 'help', they are outsourced code factories for the outsourcers... So 'please' and 'thank you' do not feature in the lexicon, it's expected you give your time, gratis, to maximise profits.

    Speaking in general - there are still some'genuine' requests out there, and just my personal opinion only, of course
    Last edited by cytop; 04-09-2017 at 05:02 AM.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    I don't buy the language thing: I'm a language teacher, and some of the first things we learn to say in a foreign language are "please" and "thank you". And I'm not talking about being praised here, just common courtesy: I don't buy the idea that it is or should be 'old school', either. I suppose it's the thin end of the wedge ...

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    I think it's both ignorance (in the pure sense of the word) along with societal changes.

    A lot, maybe 70% I'd put down to English not being the posters' native language and hence not knowing the subtleties of expression and how best to phrase things.

    Some of the demanding stuff like simple 'I want this' is clearly out of a child's Janet & John Book 1, (OK I am showing my age here), or its equivalent which is probably the basic English primer being used by a large age range. To that extent it's understandable.

    [grumpy_old_man_mode]
    25% I'd put down to the 'me too' selfie obsessed millennial generation who just aren't aware how it grinds with those of us who do expect more courteous expression.
    [/grumpy_old_man_mode]

    The rest is just those who don't care at all and are naturally rude.
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    I'm happy to be described as a grumpy old man, too.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    [MILD_RANT]I'd like to think that I am not a 'grumpy' old woman, rather someone with higher expectations than the norm (it would seem - no offence intended). I know we've discussed this before, and I always seem to find myself in the minority, but there are some 'old fashioned' values that are worth maintaining, in my view. I have certainly brought up my own daughter to be polite and courteous: it requires very little effort at all to be so. [/MILD_RANT]



    PS I suppose I am hoping that some of the serial offenders will read this and get the hint ... Well, fat chance of that happening, I suppose!!!

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    It costs nothing to post a thank you if someone provides help. I have found politeness goes a long way

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    @Ali

    That's why I stopped answering 'questions' originating form India, Pakistan.
    Any canned reply aiming at asking posters to use 'hello, goodmorning, etc,' 'please' and 'thank you' is missing.
    It could be mentioned in the 'welcome' answer (of the 'Arlu ghost') in the 'introduce yourself'-subforum too.

    Don't expect serious offenders to read any post in the water cooler; that doesn't pay off for them.



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    Minding One's Ps & Qs.. Getting alienated. :( . No Feedback :(

    I think there is a growing tendency to being uncourteous and not saying thanks etc.. I recently was answering more on a lot of smaller Forums and small Blog sites in comments / question sections... There is a noticeable increase in short badly prepared questions being posted all over the place. And any sort of feedback is getting less and less.
    Cross posting is becoming really bad, and it is great that people like you, Ali, catch them so that people do not waste their time, ( Just a minor point there - I would like to see a link to the cross posts you find – I notice you do not give that usually, - maybe you have a good reason? )

    Anyway I think there is an increasing tendency for people to drop off their question quickly to try their luck at little effort, while they may google further, or even try it to solve the problem themselves. The attitude is if they get lucky somewhere, then good, if not, nothing lost. A quick short question dropped off is done often without too much thought

    I think also the Twitty chity chaty short message thing that we all fall into from using smart phones etc. plays a role. You often notice that people have
    _ a) have forgot to scroll – they just look at the last latest reply and often miss an answer a few post back.
    _ b) they stick around a bit expecting a quick answer. If they don’t get a quick one then they never bother to look back later.

    I have also noticed that some regulars and experienced users are sometimes giving very bad or no feedback when someone helps or posts an answer or comments , makes suggestions..
    Also a lot of owners of Blog sites seem to have got fed up , or swamped with questions and have given up with their sites. Or don’t bother to reply to any comments / suggestions..

    The lack of feedback can be very disheartening, I feel your pain.

    Certainly, the ‘Arlu ghost’ should be updated. That would be one simple way to possibly get a few things across , at least for the few that do bother to introduce themselves...
    https://www.excelforum.com/suggestio...new-users.html


    It is difficult to find the right compromise between handling appropriately the crap OPs while still helping those that are possibly having great difficulty to get their message across, for example when they have difficulty speaking English, or are so inexperienced that they are struggling to know how / what to ask for..



    EDIT: I rest my case: ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc.AElstein View Post
    ....Cross posting is becoming really bad, and it is great that people like you, Ali, catch them so that people do not waste their time, ( Just a minor point there - I would like to see a link to the cross posts you find – I notice you do not give that usually, - maybe you have a good reason? )....
    _..... "....have also noticed that some regulars and experienced users are sometimes giving very bad or no feedback when someone helps or posts an answer or comments.."... I can accept that someone might choose not to read all of my ramblings in a Thread of mine.. but I would read everything posted in a Thread I start...
    It does make you wonder why yu bother sometimes...
    Last edited by Doc.AElstein; 04-09-2017 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Added my Edit ;)
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by snb View Post
    @Ali

    That's why I stopped answering 'questions' originating form India, Pakistan.
    I've spent some time in India and to be honest I think the way of speaking to which you refer is largely cultural and the way in which Hindi and other languages' phraseology is translated into English. I don't believe the majority believe for a moment that what they write can come sometimes grate. I say that because often posts contain salutations and other expressions that are somewhat deferential which is not consistent with being unthinking and not caring what they say.

    The form of speech and expression is inevitably attenuated by experience and background and there is no doubt that on the sub continent being insistent is just the way things are. Density of population and needing to be heard may be a factor. Somewhere there's probably a learned PhD thesis on this.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by cytop View Post
    You're behind the times. Forums are no longer provide 'help', they are outsourced code factories for the outsourcers... So 'please' and 'thank you' do not feature in the lexicon, it's expected you give your time, gratis, to maximise profits.
    interesting comment. Anyone esle have any views about this??

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey View Post
    I've spent some time in India and to be honest I think the way of speaking to which you refer is largely cultural and the way in which Hindi and other languages' phraseology is translated into English. I don't believe the majority believe for a moment that what they write can come sometimes grate. I say that because often posts contain salutations and other expressions that are somewhat deferential which is not consistent with being unthinking and not caring what they say.
    I don't know any Hindi, etc, and have spent about a year in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh. Societal norms are rather different out there, and this can be mistaken for boorishness. However, the folk there are (in general - just like everyhwere else) very courteous. At first sight, however, it might not seem that way. I do find being addressed here as "dear" very cute!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cytop View Post
    You're behind the times. Forums are no longer provide 'help', they are outsourced code factories for the outsourcers... So 'please' and 'thank you' do not feature in the lexicon, it's expected you give your time, gratis, to maximise profits....
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Kennedy View Post
    interesting comment. Anyone else have any views about this??
    Some take the same thought about asking a question on a Forum as reading a Google site, or even asking Google.. or just getting something from Wiki.. you rarely say thanks when you google something, and for some getting an answer from a Forum is treated the same.. Take the answer and move on..
    Last edited by Doc.AElstein; 04-09-2017 at 07:35 AM.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    "Dear" is the literal translation of the Arabic word "habibi", so anyone from that part of the world will use it without giving it a second thought - it's as common as "me duck" from the part of the world I come from or "pet" for a Geordie (i.e. every verse end).

    I don't consider there to be a racial divide here, by the way: many of those posting from the sub-continent are very courteous, almost deferential. It's those who aren't that grate, and they seem to come from every corner of the ExcelForum globe.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Ali,
    When you learn English in school, "Sir", is a polite way of addressing a person who is older(Experienced) than you are. In fact, in British subject, Sir, has a special meaning-being knighted by HM. I do not think many people from Sub- continent know the context in which the word is used. It is really annoying for people to address you as a "Sir". Please Sir.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc.AElstein
    ...rarely say thanks when you google something, and for some getting an answer from a Forum is treated the same
    At the risk of adding another dimension to this, most are too lazy to even search for a solution - it's easier, quicker and more 'efficient' for them to simply pass the buck to someone else with a quick post with minimal information while they sit back and wait for replies so they can cherry pick... and then complain that they get an error without even saying what the error is or the line it gets raises on.

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    Arrow Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs


    Hi !

    Quote Originally Posted by AliGW View Post
    Is it just me, or is there an increasing number of our membership failing to observe common courtesies? I am seeing more and more [SOLVED] tags appearing with no nod to the help that was offered in the thread itself, and I am also noticing that the language used by some members is very demanding: "I need this", "I want that". And when help is offered: "Doesn't work", or "No, that doesn't do what I want".

    Have "please" and "thank you" been removed from the vernacular? Is this a societal thing? It's very disheartening indeed.
    Same finding on other forums !
    So often even I already have a solution I move to next thread …

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Ali,
    "habibi", is a masculine, while "habibti" is a feminine.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Today we live in a very different world. There are folks who visit this forum are from many different countries with different perceptions of each other. World politics may also play a role here and this could be one of the reason of how people behave themselves at this forum.
    If you like my answer please click on * Add Reputation
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by AB33 View Post
    Ali,
    "habibi", is a masculine, while "habibti" is a feminine.
    Yes, I know. My daughter is half Lebanese.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by AB33 View Post
    Ali,
    When you learn English in school, "Sir", is a polite way of addressing a person who is older(Experienced) than you are. In fact, in British subject, Sir, has a special meaning-being knighted by HM. I do not think many people from Sub- continent know the context in which the word is used. It is really annoying for people to address you as a "Sir". Please Sir.
    I'm sorry - I don't get your point here. There is nothing wrong with addressing someone as "sir", either here, on the sub-continent or, indeed, in North America. Its usage is not as specific as you seem to think. As a school teacher myself, I am often referred to simply as "Miss", but my male colleagues will be addressed as "Sir".

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    The kids here all address me as Mistuh.
    If I've helped you, please consider adding to my reputation - just click on the liitle star at the left.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    I'm guessing Ali's rant may, in part, have been generated by this extract from a thread we both contributed to:

    From OP
    I need month and year.
    Response from me
    Quote Originally Posted by TMS
    l'M guessing there's an implicit "please" in there somewhere.
    Response from Op
    "Please" wasn't required - it was a statement, not a request (there's a difference between "I need petrol" and "Can you give me petrol"). :p

    Thread already set to "Solved", AliGW. Thanks.
    Response from me
    Quote Originally Posted by TMS
    It was indeed.

    Perhaps it was an explicit "Thank you" that was missing? Or, more specifically, "Thank you, but I need month and year."
    Response from Ali
    Must admit, I thought so, too.
    No further follow up from OP
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Oh, I should add, anyone who doesn't observe the basic courtesies doesn't get any further help from, no second chances.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Trevor/Ali. A classic example of a pimmelkopf in action!! I hope that he's still waiting for a reply....

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Is it possible to run a SQL query on this forum? If you could, post a few times and then never come back. I am betting it is over 80%.
    Be fore warned, I regularly post drunk. So don't take offence (too much) to what I say.
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    As I mentioned before , it is definitely a trend that is getting worse the lack of discourteous feedback . Also as mentioned you notice it amongst all, even very senior members including those who themselves raise their concerns about the very same.
    There will be genuine reasons of course, .. for the members here it will often be that they are very busy giving such great help and answering so many that they often do not have time for more than a quick glance at the last response that they may have had.
    I am fairly certain that I have read and responded to every response I have ever had, anywhere, even some that most would agree were probably not worthy of one. I doubt many senior members could say that. Or they might say it, but I know that’s incorrect, and they probably innocently do not realise it. But for the reasons I said, I would not necessarily say that is a criticism, not always.
    Quote Originally Posted by TMS View Post
    ... should add, anyone who doesn't observe the basic courtesies doesn't get any further help from, no second chances.
    ?? I doubt you could be sure about that, Trevor. _a) The main reason: Keeping track of all the vast amount of people you have helped would be impossible, I should think, _b) I doubt you could know if XLOP578 from today is not Yesterday’s RanjsedXL123....

    If somehow response was made compulsory at the risk of exclusion, then I expect after a while there would only be first time Members here and no one to answer any questions.
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Kennedy View Post
    interesting comment. Anyone esle have any views about this??
    I think (hope???) that was said tongue-in-cheek?
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    While I totally that courtesy is diminished here (and in other forums) of late, the golden rule still holds true - if you find something in a thread you dont like - or even if the OP just doesnt appeal to you - leave it along move on the next thread.

    My view is that some (larger or smaller) part of it, is just the fact that a large section of the younger generation of today (OK, old-man-rant here lol) just have not had the manners/social skills instilled in them, that most of us old farts have been taught and developed further. I find most kids of today get their own way from parents too busy, too lazy, too weak or just too dont-give-a-damn, with parents preferring to bribe little johnny with a new iphone or the latest shoes, rather then enforcing ground rules. This is something that I really see coming back to bite them all on the butts sooner, rather than later. Kids just expect everything to be handed to them, as their "right". Even the school's weediest little nerd HAS to be given the chance to play on the football team, even with 2 left feet, because otherwise he will feel "left out" and be traumatized bah!!

    OK end of rant

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    I am fairly certain that I have read and responded to every response I have ever had, anywhere, even some that most would agree were probably not worthy of one. I doubt many senior members could say that.
    I attempt to respond briefly to every "thank you" I get, and in my experience, most others do, too. I do not believe this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Ali,
    If you read my post you would have seen that I was not necessarily suggesting that it was a case of “The pot calling the kettle black”. Just a case of innocently missing responses, in many cases for good genuine reasons that I mentioned.
    Alan

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    You also said this, Alan:

    Also as mentioned you notice it amongst all, even very senior members including those who themselves raise their concerns about the very same.
    For what it's worth, I don't agree with your assessment in this case.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Ali, I have sometimes responed to senior members and had no respones, here and elswhere, Forums, Blog sites. It is quite rare, and I do not remember them all. Over the last year or so I guess it totals about 100, but I really do not keep record. Certainly it is a lot more noticable with newer / younger OPs, probably more in the order of about 1000 in that case for no responses to help I gave. I was not referring to any one person specifically. It is just something I have noticed, and it appears to have an increasing tendancy, as I explained in previous posts.

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    Forum Moderator AliGW's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    It is quite rare ...
    Quite so.

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    Forum Guru Pepe Le Mokko's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Interesting thread Ali, thanks for bringing it up.
    Anything to do with https://www.excelforum.com/excel-cha...el-2016-a.html and other threads by the same OP?
    ( Next time he steps out of line on forums I moderate, he's out, but here, he'll get away with it...)

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    Forum Moderator AliGW's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    He and a few others, one in particular who keeps demanding help on very similar issues without showing any willingness to learn from any previous help given and shows very little, if any gratitude.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Regrettably, like common sense, common courtesy is also not so common. I am not sure that it is a new phenomenon, but it does appear more prevalent- possibly precisely because places such as this on the internet can and do provide fast, free help, which leads to an increased expectation of the same which, in turn, leads to less gratitude when it is provided.

    I am glad to say that I, personally, have encountered relatively few such instances here thus far and fewer repeat offenders. Mostly it appears to be an affliction of the "one hit wonder" poster, although that naturally makes it a little harder to legislate against.
    Don
    Please remember to mark your thread 'Solved' when appropriate.

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    Forum Moderator Glenn Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    He's irritated me, too. I had a solution to a problem ready and was then informed about a multiple posting of his Q. Being a grumpy old so-and-so, I then posted a rather narky response and deleted my solution!!

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    @Glenn: unfortunately, if the OP had enabled mail notification, he may already have seen your answer

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Ah no, he won't. I was just about to post and (unusually for me...) I remembered to refresh the thread. I deleted it from my PC and it never made it to the Forum.

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    Forum Expert Doc.AElstein's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by xlnitwit View Post
    .. appears to be an affliction of the "one hit wonder" poster, .
    I bet if first time posters had to undergo some sort of legitimy / courtesy / genuine-ality test before being allowed to post, then the situation would be improved considerably.. Lol...
    But that is totally unpractical I guess, and undesirable from the Management point of view, as Member numbers, and posts would be greatly reduced..

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    ...I wonder how long it will be before AI catches up with this subject and formulates automatic appropriate responses to posters where relevant.

    On an associated and more practical note does the 'sign up' procedure make any mention of the standards we expect. It's all very well having a set of rules for reference after sign up - (how many actually bother), but maybe if it was spelled out clearly as part of the sign up with some sort of positive response required - and I don't just mean a tick box, then maybe that would help.

    Perhaps the response could simply say something like. Now please add a few words that confirm you have understood.

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    Forum Expert Doc.AElstein's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    @ Richard Buttrey - A lot would fail the "initiation legitimy / courtesy / genuine-ality" test lol...

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    And the Late responses from OP even though you see them online. You are the one trying to solve their problem and you are the one waiting. lol.
    I think people forget the word "THANK YOU!!!!" Do you still know it???

    There is a little star ( ADD REPUTATION ) below those person who helped you. Click it to say your "PRIVATE APPRECIATION TO THEIR EFFORT ON THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS "

    Regards,
    Vladimir

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by cytop View Post
    You're behind the times. Forums are no longer provide 'help', they are outsourced code factories for the outsourcers .... most are too lazy to even search for a solution - it's easier, quicker and more 'efficient' for them to simply pass the buck to someone else with a quick post with minimal information while they sit back and wait for replies so they can cherry pick... and then complain that they get an error without even saying what the error is or the line it gets raises on.
    Quote Originally Posted by xlnitwit View Post
    .... places such as this on the internet can and do provide fast, free help, which leads to an increased expectation of the same which, in turn, leads to less gratitude when it is provided....
    Hmm...
    It just occurred to me .. after getting very dirty and frustrated digging out some old VB books I bought cheap a couple of years ago and stored away in a very inaccessible corner of the Cellar...

    _.. I used to spend lot of effort both physical and mental driving on me Motor Biker down to London sometimes to dig out old research papers from the libraries...
    _.. It was a pleasure to get a chance sit on me bum later and just read and learn from them..

    _.. You rarely have to do that now. It is all there to be Googled. What was previously relatively speaking a pleasure and light relief is now the “work”, as the harder stuff is not there to compare with.
    _.. Hence the “Gimmeh Teh Codez” mentality to get some oone to do your “work”

    _..._______________

    _.. Begs the question what some people have left to do in their “work” time.

    ( well actually, I know what some of the better, less lazy ones do when they have a bit of free time... ... spend their time fruitfully helping people in this forum ( and sometimes beneftitng themselves a bit as well by learning a bit in doing so )
    Last edited by Doc.AElstein; 04-11-2017 at 10:25 AM.

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    I'm happening along on this thread rather late, but I thought I would throw in my USD 0.02.

    When I was new here (or perhaps it was another similar forum) I posted about abandoned threads. I had provided a few solutions and the OP never came back to acknowledge my effort. The answers were along the lines of, "That is the way it is." This was a bit disheartening, but I stuck with it and...here I am.

    I have seen all kinds of things:
    • Threads with solutions never acknowledged
    • Threads with solutions but the OP just comes back and asks for more, more, more
    • Threads where the OP has done no work at all and is asking for the moon (not in CS!)
    • Threads where the OP is clearly asking us to do his job or his interview preparation or his homework or his certification exam for him
    • Threads where people get histrionic when they are flagged for a rule violation
    • Members who get overzealous about minor rule violations
    • Members who turn a thread into a duel to the death (sometimes a Moderator is a participant in this nasty-words-at-20-paces standoff)

    I have also seen:
    • People who thank me when I provide a solution, sometimes profusely (I was called awesome twice in the last few weeks :-) )
    • People who praise me in Rep points when I provide a solution
    • People who offer me extra points in CS after the fact just because they realized I did a lot of work to solved their problem


    It is the second group of experiences that keep me here and allow me to completely write off the first group. People, don't let the bad apples get to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Buttrey View Post
    Some of the demanding stuff like simple 'I want this' is clearly out of a child's Janet & John Book 1, (OK I am showing my age here)
    I am an old f*** and in the U.S. we had "D i c k and Jane." (had to insert spaces to get past the censors.)

    Quote Originally Posted by AliGW View Post
    Yes, I know. My daughter is half Lebanese.
    What is the other half? My kids are 1/4 Egyptian and 1/4 Iraqi. The half I'm accountable for is about equal parts eastern European (Lithuanian, Russian) and Western European (German, French).
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  48. #48
    Forum Moderator Glenn Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    An interesting mixture for sure. My lot are pure Scots or Scots-Irish since the dawn of recorded time...

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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Kennedy View Post
    An interesting mixture for sure. My lot are pure Scots or Scots-Irish since the dawn of recorded time...
    Have you seen that video that shows people who think their background is pure, then they take a DNA test, and they find out lots of surprises?

    I sent a test to 23andme and the results were consistent with what I expected, mostly. But I did not expect 1.3% Italian.

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    Forum Moderator Glenn Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    She-who-must-be-obeyed is into genealogy in a big way. Up to the last couple of generations, my lot are all farmers from two small areas, one in Ireland and one in Scotland. Three hundred years of contented boredom.

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    Forum Guru AlKey's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    Well, genealogy is a double–edged sword. One can find out about yourself more than they wished to.

  52. #52
    Forum Moderator Glenn Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: Minding One's Ps & Qs

    She-who-must-be-obeyed would agree with you. All sorts of hanky-panky on her side....

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