Need a Java Forum as good as Excelforum

[SocratesJC]

I recently started learning Java so that I could write a program to work on an Android device.

I'd like to find a Java forum that lives up to Excelforum's standards in structure, activity, and overall atmosphere. Any tips?

[AB33]

I suspect there is none. I think part of it is a practical issue. Excel is used by millions of people, ranging from one-liner solution to a couple of hundreds of code. IMO, lots of people are not aware or do not want to go in to VBA, thus you can easily draw a boundary. This is difficult to adhere in OOP languages, where an application could range from few hundreds to millions of lines ( I have read somewhere Facebook has around 2m of lines of code). It is practically difficult to isolate part of a code and ask someone to help you.
There are hundreds of sites which are catered to help people with a specific topic or concept, but not like excel format.
I use Stack flow quite a lot- it has wealthy of info on any IT topic.

[SocratesJC]

Thanks for your reply AB33. I'm attempting to see how much use StackOverflow will be to me at the moment of reading your response.

It is practically difficult to isolate part of a code and ask someone to help you.

This is the largest hurdle that I am encountering in trying to learn Java after having/knowing VBA as a foundation. Even small tasks are rather complex. I remember getting started with VBA being a much easier process (and it was my very first coding experience).

One thing that is so great about Excel Forum (that I am not seeing encouraged as much elsewhere yet) are the policies:
-Post with code tags
-Provide an uploaded Workbook for an example
-Indicate the solution that helped after finding it
-Mark as solved when finished
-Be Kind

I believe there are a couple others I am missing as well.

[JapanDave]

I recommend this site Dream.In.Code. I started using it when I first started in C#, but you won't get responses as you would here. There seems to be many people that post homework assignments and expect people to solve the problems for them. You will need to show effort in understanding your problem, but even then, you might find it hard to get people to post code for you. It is one of the forums that has quite a bit of traffic, but nothing like what is here. But, at least you can have a back forth conversation, something that you can't do on StackOverflow

One thing that really took me a long time to get started was the ability to understand how to even structure code before I even wrote a single line. Learning by yourself with just books and the internet can be a difficult task. Not impossible, as I have finally got to the stage where I am understanding more complex code.

[SocratesJC]

Thanks JapanDave, I will check out Dream.In.Code as well.

[snb]

There are many excellent fora, but you should acquire their language first (helpmij.nl: Dutch; Office-loesung: German, Clever Excel Forum: German and several good fora in french too).

[tim201110]

and Russian
http://www.programmersforum.ru/

[AB33]

Hi Socrates,
It is funny we are on the same boat.
This is my opinion and feeling right now.
As you are probably aware, broadly speaking, there are two types of programming paradigm: Structural and OOP.
It has been widely accepted that people who started programing in Structural have hard time learning or switching to OOP. The main reason is “state of mind”. It takes time to train your mind in OOP’s mind set. The mind has been entrenched in loops and conditional statements for years. OOP’s purist argues that once you have conditional statements in your code, you are no longer using OOP.

Learning VBA to learn a programming language(OOP) is the worst choice anyone can make, except, if you start learning to make your own custom objects. You are forced to learn fundamental programming concepts, such as, Inheritance, Composition, Encapsulation, Abstraction and polymorphism. I know VBA is not an OOP, but Object based- it does not support Inheritance and very limited polymorphism. However, the biggest advantage you gain is start to think in objects and how they collaborate.

I made all wrong choices. I did not even look at classes in VBA until I started to learn OOP and found it myself surprised. I could not even understand some simple classes. Even classes such as, Dictionary and Collections, which I am quite comfortable using them in VBA become so hard. Why? Because there is no more spoon-feed. I have to write my own functions to use these classes.
If you have spent few months learning OOP, as Dave did, and then look back at VBA code, you will say “Gosh! What I wasted my time”. But this is the wonderful world of hindsight- if all go back in time.

[JapanDave]

@AB33, absolutely. My first bunch of code was so VBA it was not funny. I am finally realizing how to correctly use classes, properties, interfaces, wrappers and many other OOP related programming. Actually , Kyle who is a member here has helped me a great deal in understanding a lot of stuff.

[Kyle123]

Cheers Dave, how are you getting on with that project? Have you finished it yet?

[JapanDave]

Hey Kyle, yeah, I have just about finished. I am not sure if I mentioned this or not , but I completed the application no problem using basic binding and your typical event handling. But, I moved to using the MVVM model and WOW, did that open my eyes up. I never knew that C# could be this powerful. Suffice to say, I have learnt quite a bit in XAML and XML in regards to UI's.

I really do want to get into web dev in the future, but WPF and Xamarin apps is just too much fun right now.

How about yourself? How have you been?

[AB33]

Hi Dave,
You are lucky to have "Jack all trades" man helping you behind the scene.
I am still unlearning and freeing my mind from loops and ifs.
I am on snail pace. Oh man, "Design Patterns" is the top killer. I am probably punching well above my weight.

[JapanDave]

@AB33. Absolutely , Kyle knows his stuff. But, it does come down to getting the correct resources. I did also use Lynda.com they do have some great resources and that did give me a leg up.

When you say, "Design Pattern", what do you mean? What are you using WinForms or WPF?

[AB33]

Well, according to wiki

"In software engineering, a software design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem within a given context in software design. It is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into source or machine code".

There are 23 patterns, split in to 3 groups-Creational, Structural and Behavioral.
If you mention Gang of 4, most developers could easily figure out that you are talking about "Design Patterns"

I think you are right and worth paying money to get the right start. I am still relying on YouTube and Google. I have watched Lynda's C# course by guy called Martin, but it is not advanced level. Do you get the chance to practice with practical coding, or is all theory in Lynda ?

[JapanDave]

OK, I see what you are saying. I thought you were talking about design of a UI. BTW, what are learning right now? C# and Windows Forms or WPF?

[AB33]

Hi Dave,
Not yet!
My approach is to have a general feel for the language before I go in to specific areas. My focus has been on the lasts versions and advanced level of C#.
Correct me if I am wrong, why do I need to lean Forms while they have been or will be replaced by WPF?

[Kyle123]

It's horses for courses, winforms are less of a culture shock than WPF if you're coming from a VBA background.

If I were starting again, I'd start with console applications in C# and work up, it's much easier to learn the language when you don't have to deal with all the additional complexities of whichever GUI framework you decide upon.

Also, it's pretty easy to get caught up in things like design patterns, best practice and the "best way of doing things", programmers seem to have strong opinions on the so called "best way" (read their way). It's much better just to start programming things, you'll do things the hard way and all the design patterns will start to make sense - you'll have those eureka moments when you think ah! that's why that pattern exists - you'll remember it then and have a much better understanding up why it use it and what problem it solves.

@Dave, how are you finding Xamarin? I need to develop a multi-platform app for work and am evaluating the various options - I was fairly settled on using the ionic framework with cordova, but I think I'm coming around to a more native application due to needing better integration with GPS, the camera and an offline database.

[AB33]

Hi Kyle,
You are absolutely spot on!
I have a bad habit of drifting. I was caught up on the debate "Composition versus inheritance" and somehow ended up on "Designs Patterns".

Most developers are highly opinionated people. Some of them have "My way or the high way" attitude. They seem to spend lots of time thrashing each other and bickering over which language is better than another one. I am focusing on C# and would avoid to get caught up on such pointless debate.

[JapanDave]

@Kyle,You can use Xamarin.Forms project for your UI. You can code your UI in either C# code or through a XAML (which as you know is almost the same as WPF XAML, slight differences in naming of a few controls and does some different features, but really this is a non issue) Doing something like this will allow you to have Cross-Platform UI. I am still learning about all this, but from what I can see, it seems to be the best way to use the language you are strongest in (I am still relatively new to Java) to do your code behind. I don't WinForms type code behind BTW. I am finding that XAML is so much better at creating the UI then using code behind and WinForms. I could not comment as to if this would be the better way to go for your project, as you know way more than me, but I am not finding the transition that difficult, which could be something to keep in mind, especially when Xamarin is so versatile.

@AB33. I agree with Kyle, start on console apps and work your way to WPF. Don't bother with WinForms, even though as Kyle states, it is much less of a culture shock to start in WinForms, but the issue is that it is old tech and people these days are tending to move towards WPF and Xamarin.