Sort order for characters & symbols - does anything follow z?

Hi! I was just wondering if anybody knows of a character that comes AFTER z
in the sorting order?

Basically, I have a name defined list of members of staff, which I use as a
dropdown menu for entering data into certain fields. However, we take on new
staff all the time, and so I will need to be adding names to that list all
the time. Because this group is also used as a lookup vector, it needs to be
in alphabetical order too (and I'd prefer it that way anyway).

I did look at the "Update Multiple Validation Lists" file at
http://www.contextures.com/excelfiles.html
but I'm afraid I am a novice when it comes to macros, and couldn't manage to
alter the code to match the sheet names, columns etc... in my own workbook (I
don't have a clue which parameters to alter or how!).

So my basic method was that if I inserted new cells into the name defined
range, then the cells that the name refers to should expand accordingly. E.g.
if cells A1:A2 are named "list", I click on A2 and choose insert to put a new
cell between the two, then my "refers to" part on the define name menu
automatically changes from A1:A2 to A1:A3.

The problem is this - I need to make sure that there is ALWAYS one cell
below where I am inserting the new one, to make sure the range expands. If my
last entry was "Young", and I then needed to add a "Zackyros", the new cell
comes at the end, after the last cell, and I then need to manually go back to
re-define the named range.

I was hoping to add a "dummy" entry to the bottom of the list to ensure this
doesn't happen, e.g.
** END OF LIST **
but all the symbols I try come BEFORE alphabetical characters. I can't find
any that come after Z. If worst comes to the worst I could use
zzzz END OF LIST zzzz
but I thought it would be worth asking first.

Can anyone solve the riddle?
Many thanks in advance, Neil Goldwasser.

To find characters that follow z go to the character map (Start, Run, CHARMAP) and see the order of characters, for Arial ﻼ appears to be the highest, this should help your sort, but not the look, perhaps the zzzz is the better idea if users will see this.

Originally Posted by Neil Goldwasser

Hi! I was just wondering if anybody knows of a character that comes AFTER z
in the sorting order?

Basically, I have a name defined list of members of staff, which I use as a
dropdown menu for entering data into certain fields. However, we take on new
staff all the time, and so I will need to be adding names to that list all
the time. Because this group is also used as a lookup vector, it needs to be
in alphabetical order too (and I'd prefer it that way anyway).

I did look at the "Update Multiple Validation Lists" file at
http://www.contextures.com/excelfiles.html
but I'm afraid I am a novice when it comes to macros, and couldn't manage to
alter the code to match the sheet names, columns etc... in my own workbook (I
don't have a clue which parameters to alter or how!).

So my basic method was that if I inserted new cells into the name defined
range, then the cells that the name refers to should expand accordingly. E.g.
if cells A1:A2 are named "list", I click on A2 and choose insert to put a new
cell between the two, then my "refers to" part on the define name menu
automatically changes from A1:A2 to A1:A3.

The problem is this - I need to make sure that there is ALWAYS one cell
below where I am inserting the new one, to make sure the range expands. If my
last entry was "Young", and I then needed to add a "Zackyros", the new cell
comes at the end, after the last cell, and I then need to manually go back to
re-define the named range.

I was hoping to add a "dummy" entry to the bottom of the list to ensure this
doesn't happen, e.g.
** END OF LIST **
but all the symbols I try come BEFORE alphabetical characters. I can't find
any that come after Z. If worst comes to the worst I could use
zzzz END OF LIST zzzz
but I thought it would be worth asking first.

Can anyone solve the riddle?
Many thanks in advance, Neil Goldwasser.

the lower case z is CHAR(122). There are two characters after it:

CHAR(142) and CHAR(158)
--
Gary's Student


"Bryan Hessey" wrote:

>
> To find characters that follow z go to the character map (Start, Run,
> CHARMAP) and see the order of characters, for Arial ﻼ appears
> to be the highest, this should help your sort, but not the look,
> perhaps the zzzz is the better idea if users will see this.
>
>
> Neil Goldwasser Wrote:
> > Hi! I was just wondering if anybody knows of a character that comes
> > AFTER z
> > in the sorting order?
> >
> > Basically, I have a name defined list of members of staff, which I use
> > as a
> > dropdown menu for entering data into certain fields. However, we take
> > on new
> > staff all the time, and so I will need to be adding names to that list
> > all
> > the time. Because this group is also used as a lookup vector, it needs
> > to be
> > in alphabetical order too (and I'd prefer it that way anyway).
> >
> > I did look at the "Update Multiple Validation Lists" file at
> > http://www.contextures.com/excelfiles.html
> > but I'm afraid I am a novice when it comes to macros, and couldn't
> > manage to
> > alter the code to match the sheet names, columns etc... in my own
> > workbook (I
> > don't have a clue which parameters to alter or how!).
> >
> > So my basic method was that if I inserted new cells into the name
> > defined
> > range, then the cells that the name refers to should expand
> > accordingly. E.g.
> > if cells A1:A2 are named "list", I click on A2 and choose insert to put
> > a new
> > cell between the two, then my "refers to" part on the define name menu
> > automatically changes from A1:A2 to A1:A3.
> >
> > The problem is this - I need to make sure that there is ALWAYS one
> > cell
> > below where I am inserting the new one, to make sure the range expands.
> > If my
> > last entry was "Young", and I then needed to add a "Zackyros", the new
> > cell
> > comes at the end, after the last cell, and I then need to manually go
> > back to
> > re-define the named range.
> >
> > I was hoping to add a "dummy" entry to the bottom of the list to ensure
> > this
> > doesn't happen, e.g.
> > ** END OF LIST **
> > but all the symbols I try come BEFORE alphabetical characters. I can't
> > find
> > any that come after Z. If worst comes to the worst I could use
> > zzzz END OF LIST zzzz
> > but I thought it would be worth asking first.
> >
> > Can anyone solve the riddle?
> > Many thanks in advance, Neil Goldwasser.
>
>
> --
> Bryan Hessey
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Hessey's Profile: http://www.excelforum.com/member.php...o&userid=21059
> View this thread: http://www.excelforum.com/showthread...hreadid=392849
>
>

Thanks. I tried the character map thing (never seen it before) but I didn't
know what the ﻼ bit meant in your post.

Yes, the users will see the list, so unless there is a nice neat symbol e.g.
bullet point, arrow etc... that will come after z, it looks like I'll go with
the zzzzz idea.

What do I do with the character map though?
Neil Goldwasser



"Gary's Student" wrote:

> the lower case z is CHAR(122). There are two characters after it:
>
> CHAR(142) and CHAR(158)
> --
> Gary's Student
>
>
> "Bryan Hessey" wrote:
>
> >
> > To find characters that follow z go to the character map (Start, Run,
> > CHARMAP) and see the order of characters, for Arial ﻼ appears
> > to be the highest, this should help your sort, but not the look,
> > perhaps the zzzz is the better idea if users will see this.
> >
> >
> > Neil Goldwasser Wrote:
> > > Hi! I was just wondering if anybody knows of a character that comes
> > > AFTER z
> > > in the sorting order?
> > >
> > > Basically, I have a name defined list of members of staff, which I use
> > > as a
> > > dropdown menu for entering data into certain fields. However, we take
> > > on new
> > > staff all the time, and so I will need to be adding names to that list
> > > all
> > > the time. Because this group is also used as a lookup vector, it needs
> > > to be
> > > in alphabetical order too (and I'd prefer it that way anyway).
> > >
> > > I did look at the "Update Multiple Validation Lists" file at
> > > http://www.contextures.com/excelfiles.html
> > > but I'm afraid I am a novice when it comes to macros, and couldn't
> > > manage to
> > > alter the code to match the sheet names, columns etc... in my own
> > > workbook (I
> > > don't have a clue which parameters to alter or how!).
> > >
> > > So my basic method was that if I inserted new cells into the name
> > > defined
> > > range, then the cells that the name refers to should expand
> > > accordingly. E.g.
> > > if cells A1:A2 are named "list", I click on A2 and choose insert to put
> > > a new
> > > cell between the two, then my "refers to" part on the define name menu
> > > automatically changes from A1:A2 to A1:A3.
> > >
> > > The problem is this - I need to make sure that there is ALWAYS one
> > > cell
> > > below where I am inserting the new one, to make sure the range expands.
> > > If my
> > > last entry was "Young", and I then needed to add a "Zackyros", the new
> > > cell
> > > comes at the end, after the last cell, and I then need to manually go
> > > back to
> > > re-define the named range.
> > >
> > > I was hoping to add a "dummy" entry to the bottom of the list to ensure
> > > this
> > > doesn't happen, e.g.
> > > ** END OF LIST **
> > > but all the symbols I try come BEFORE alphabetical characters. I can't
> > > find
> > > any that come after Z. If worst comes to the worst I could use
> > > zzzz END OF LIST zzzz
> > > but I thought it would be worth asking first.
> > >
> > > Can anyone solve the riddle?
> > > Many thanks in advance, Neil Goldwasser.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bryan Hessey
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Bryan Hessey's Profile: http://www.excelforum.com/member.php...o&userid=21059
> > View this thread: http://www.excelforum.com/showthread...hreadid=392849
> >
> >

I think the ZZZ is the best option, it won't confuse your users (except the ones that want to know who Ms ZZZ End of File is)

The map is just to display the code used to generate which character in whatever Font is currently selected, thus if you hold the Alt key and type (using the numeric keypad on the right side of your keyboard) 090 (zero-nine-zero) then release the Alt key you should produce a Z

Also, check your sort, I think uppercase Z sorts after lowercase z.

Originally Posted by Neil Goldwasser

Thanks. I tried the character map thing (never seen it before) but I didn't
know what the ﻼ bit meant in your post.

Yes, the users will see the list, so unless there is a nice neat symbol e.g.
bullet point, arrow etc... that will come after z, it looks like I'll go with
the zzzzz idea.

What do I do with the character map though?
Neil Goldwasser



"Gary's Student" wrote:

> the lower case z is CHAR(122). There are two characters after it:
>
> CHAR(142) and CHAR(158)
> --
> Gary's Student
>
>
> "Bryan Hessey" wrote:
>
> >
> > To find characters that follow z go to the character map (Start, Run,
> > CHARMAP) and see the order of characters, for Arial ﻼ appears
> > to be the highest, this should help your sort, but not the look,
> > perhaps the zzzz is the better idea if users will see this.
> >
> >
> > Neil Goldwasser Wrote:
> > > Hi! I was just wondering if anybody knows of a character that comes
> > > AFTER z
> > > in the sorting order?
> > >
> > > Basically, I have a name defined list of members of staff, which I use
> > > as a
> > > dropdown menu for entering data into certain fields. However, we take
> > > on new
> > > staff all the time, and so I will need to be adding names to that list
> > > all
> > > the time. Because this group is also used as a lookup vector, it needs
> > > to be
> > > in alphabetical order too (and I'd prefer it that way anyway).
> > >
> > > I did look at the "Update Multiple Validation Lists" file at
> > > http://www.contextures.com/excelfiles.html
> > > but I'm afraid I am a novice when it comes to macros, and couldn't
> > > manage to
> > > alter the code to match the sheet names, columns etc... in my own
> > > workbook (I
> > > don't have a clue which parameters to alter or how!).
> > >
> > > So my basic method was that if I inserted new cells into the name
> > > defined
> > > range, then the cells that the name refers to should expand
> > > accordingly. E.g.
> > > if cells A1:A2 are named "list", I click on A2 and choose insert to put
> > > a new
> > > cell between the two, then my "refers to" part on the define name menu
> > > automatically changes from A1:A2 to A1:A3.
> > >
> > > The problem is this - I need to make sure that there is ALWAYS one
> > > cell
> > > below where I am inserting the new one, to make sure the range expands.
> > > If my
> > > last entry was "Young", and I then needed to add a "Zackyros", the new
> > > cell
> > > comes at the end, after the last cell, and I then need to manually go
> > > back to
> > > re-define the named range.
> > >
> > > I was hoping to add a "dummy" entry to the bottom of the list to ensure
> > > this
> > > doesn't happen, e.g.
> > > ** END OF LIST **
> > > but all the symbols I try come BEFORE alphabetical characters. I can't
> > > find
> > > any that come after Z. If worst comes to the worst I could use
> > > zzzz END OF LIST zzzz
> > > but I thought it would be worth asking first.
> > >
> > > Can anyone solve the riddle?
> > > Many thanks in advance, Neil Goldwasser.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Bryan Hessey
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Bryan Hessey's Profile: http://www.excelforum.com/member.php...o&userid=21059
> > View this thread: http://www.excelforum.com/showthread...hreadid=392849
> >
> >

I can definitevely confirm that lowercase "z" ALWAYS SORTS LAST. There are no special characters that sort after it. NONE.

This can be confirmed by:

1. putting "=char(row())" in column A for 1000 rows.
2. Then copy column A and paste as text on top of itself.
3. (ignore any clipboard warnings related to non printable characters)
4. Scroll down toward the end and you'll see that all special characters actually sort ahead of letters.
5. You also see that special characters based on English letters with accents or diacriticals actually sort next to the corresponding English letter.
6. Nothing sorts after lowercase "z" and its variants; ž, Ž.

I did a search, and one MVPS site result noted that sort order ignores apostrophes and dashes EXCEPT
when the two strings are the same except for the dash - then the dashed string sorts last.

This is what I use: a DASH followed by ZZZ then by any text will sort LAST!
I use "-ZZZ BLANK" for blank entries, which sort last. You can use anything for the text after the DASH ZZZ.
I haven't tried the APOSTROPHE...

| or this ~