Everyone posts a workbook...

When did the emphasis of this forum become "here's my workbook, fix it for me"? Even when someone doesn't start out with a workbook, the response is "post a workbook and we'll look at it".

Half the benefit of these forums is learning how to ask your question intelligibly; often clearly thinking of your question will point you toward the answer without actually needing to post it.

As someone who answers a lot of questions on a lot of forums, admittedly not much here of late, I don't feel I have time or patience to open random workbooks and figure out what someone is trying to do.

Hi, Jon,

I don't mind if people unnecessarily post workbooks; when it's easier to answer a question with reference to it, it's my preference to do so, and closure is typically faster.

When someone posts a workbook and says "see my question inside," I move on the the next thread.

I realize that most questions are answered per force at MrE without one (the exception being external links), but many threads there, IMO, are unnecessarily protracted for lack of one.

Hi Jon,

I've made it a practice to attach a workbook with my answer as I learn from examples and trial and error. Many times I need to error many times before the fog clears and I see the real problem. If the OP posts a sample workbook it is much easier for me to see the structure and understand the problem. Many times a merged cell or scattered data is the real problem and the thread title or question is not even close to what the answer is going to be. I've also seen answers that give a long CSE formula only with instructions of "Try this:" followed by a huge formula. Many times the answer doesn't even suggest which cell to put the formula in.

I find also the terms that are needed for finding a good answer are specific to Excel and the OP doesn't know how to search for these terms. This happens mostly with "Cascading Dropdowns" or "Dynamic Named Ranges" which we know about in Excel but the beginner has no idea what they are called and needs the words to do searching. I just learned about a new one of these myself the morning when a user posted a CF question that accepted a named range in the CF but not another name of the exact same range. Without having an attachment, I would never have discovered one of the ranges was a Table and therefore wouldn't work in the CF.

Bottom Line is - having an attached sample workbook makes my job as a problem solver much easier.

Originally Posted by Jon_Peltier

Half the benefit of these forums is learning how to ask your question intelligibly

Perhaps to some, but do you imagine that the average OP comes here with such self-improvement in mind?

Still, I can't help but sympathize with your sentiments. If this forum could somehow create an ethos (making it a "rule" would perhaps be going too far?) in which structured, thought-out questions were the norm, then all the better. I'm uncertain as to how such a change could be brought about, though I'd certainly welcome it.

I might also add that disallowing attachments does not necessarily lead to the ideal type of questioning to which you allude. Although it's true that such a practice does mean that OPs can't get away with a simple "See attached file"-type approach, that's not to say that the quality or content of the post are of a decent standard: I find a lot of the posts over at MrExcel, for example, to consist of little more than a bodged table accompanied by a couple of vaguely intelligible lines of explanation.

The fact is that, ideally, we require both. Currently, however, the two biggest forums around seem to be polarized on this matter. One allows attachments but suffers the consequences of a general lack of attempt on behalf of the OP to elucidate their query. The other disallows attachments but suffers the consequences of unrealistic data.

You're damned if you do...

Regards

i'm with shg and MarvinP... half the time it's practically impossible to figure out what the OP is trying to ask without a sample workbook, and the other half it takes much longer and the response has to be vague to the point of not really helping anyone...

I'll take the point that responses should offer more guidance instead of simply providing the formula / code / workbook itself. I've definitely failed to do so on some of my posts, but I think it is fantastic practice for the OP to attach a workbook on every question and fully intend to continue to encourage people to do so.

Just to stir the pot a bit...

Half the benefit of these forums is learning how to ask your question intelligibly;

Seeing as "intelligibly" is a seldom-used adverb, I had to look it up to see if it actually was a recognised english word (it is, so thanks for that).

My point is, that often, it is hard to understand what is being asked - the OP may know in their own mind exactly what they want, and their descrip[tion may make perfect sense to them. But, not knowing what they are doing, other members may not have the slightest clue what they are talking about. In these cases, it is frequently better to ask for a WB so you can see the context of their question.

When you throw into the mix that this is an international forum, and for some members, english is not a first language, the problem of deciphering what the OP wants gets compounded to, sometimes, the point of incomprehension Again, seeing a sample of what they have and what they want, often makes the question very clear.

Other instances where seeing a sample WB is of great help, is when the explanation, by its complexity, gets very long-winded and involved. Again, often seeing what they want, makes things easier to understand.

As you have probably guessed by now, I am a big proponent of uploading sample workbooks - not every time, but when necessary. So much so, that, although I am a member of a few other forums, I do not spend much time on them for the very reason that they do not allow uploads.

I would agree that wording your question properly will sometimes lead you to your answer, but that presupposes that you had some idea of what tools were available to you in the first place.

I will also be the first to point out that I have often asked a member who just says "see WB for question", to ask their question in the thread, along with replying to "is it possible?" with "yes".

I guess what it comes down to is, if you dont like the thread, dont spend time on it - move to the next 1

You get bad questions everywhere, and you have unmotivated OPs. The way to improve a question is to ask the OP for clarification, not for a workbook. The OP will learn to write better questions, or go away.

However, an over-reliance on posting of workbooks degrades the caliber of questions (shrouding them within the workbook) and of the answers (similarly shrouded). Good responses are clear, step-by-step if need be, and accompanied by images that can be read in -line, not workbooks that must be opened and read in a separate cognitive process.

When I'm looking for questions to spend time on, I click on threads with interesting titles. If the thread starts with a workbook, I skip it. I find on this particular forum, I skip 95% of the possibly interesting threads. That's almost at the point where I will stop looking here. After the discussion proves that the question is more complicated, and something funny is going on, then a workbook is fine.

I find the questions are a bit more thought through on MrExcel, and if you want to see some very well thought-out questions, browse through the Stack Overflow family of forums. These generally have more intelligible questions and answers than the dedicated Excel forums.

Speaking of protracted threads. there was one here, which the OP started by posting an image describing his question, which I thought was fine, since the question was otherwise clear. The response was "post an attachment". the OP replied "I did, but here it is again". The response again was "where's your attachment". The OP then replied with the image three or four times. The response then was, "no, an XLS attachment". So the lack of clarity was the responder, not the OP.

Responders also need to show some decorum and restraint. I've seen threads where the first response was "What are you talking about??", and the next response was a clear answer to a not too unclear question. Sometimes my own first impulse is to say "What are you talking about??", but I move on, and if I happen to reread the question it may actually be pretty clear.

I don't mind SMALL sample files that accompany a well written explanation/description of what the OP is trying to do.

I just move on when the attached file is like 700kb+ (in xlsx format!).

When I'm looking for questions to spend time on, I click on threads with interesting titles. If the thread starts with a workbook, I skip it. I find on this particular forum, I skip 95% of the possibly interesting threads. That's almost at the point where I will stop looking here. After the discussion proves that the question is more complicated, and something funny is going on, then a workbook is fine.

As has been suggested, skip what you dont like, move to the next 5%. Different forums have different "flavors", not all suite everyone. we are 1 of the biggest forums around, so we must be doing something better than the others (most of whom dont allow uploads)...just a thought

Sure, you're one of the two big Excel forums, I get it. All I was saying is that the attached workbooks knock out 90% of the posts I might have answered. So you see, I do move along. And when I feel myself moving along so frequently, I also lose interest and move on.

I'm not trying to anger anyone. I'm just saying that for me and my own style of working the forums, which I've been using successfully for well over fifteen years, this is a less-than-satisfactory experience. Obviously some smart people don't mind, and they hang out here and deal with workbooks and answer questions.

Biff said, "I don't mind SMALL sample files that accompany a well written explanation/description of what the OP is trying to do." I agree, but I think that in most cases, a "well written explanation/description" obviates the need for a workbook. Unfortunately OPs rely on the workbooks to tell their stories and skimp on their descriptions. It's tough enough to understand the one or two paragraphs in a workbook-free post, it's even harder to decipher what someone has done in their own workbooks, and then figure out the problem.

Biff said, "I don't mind SMALL sample files that accompany a well written explanation/description of what the OP is trying to do." I agree, but I think that in most cases, a "well written explanation/description" obviates the need for a workbook. Unfortunately OPs rely on the workbooks to tell their stories and skimp on their descriptions. It's tough enough to understand the one or two paragraphs in a workbook-free post, it's even harder to decipher what someone has done in their own workbooks, and then figure out the problem.

I am in complete agreement here. Dont get me wrong, although I often like to see what the OP is talking about, a well-described problem is already 1/2 way to the answer. Posts like "here's my workbook, fix it for me" get asked to add more detail.

We try for a happy medium, sometimes it works, other times, not so much

Unfortunately OPs rely on the workbooks to tell their stories and skimp on their descriptions.

No disagreement, Jon.

And I don't think you've annoyed, much less angered, anyone. We're reasonably mellow souls, and pleased to have your participation at any level.

Originally Posted by shg

And I don't think you've annoyed, much less angered, anyone. We're reasonably mellow souls, and pleased to have your participation at any level.

Agreed shg, I meant to add that to my post too, but - you know - with memory failing

Also, let's not overlook the obvious...

Every file you download is another opportunity to get infected with virus/malware.

Yeah, I know. You scan the files and your anti-virus software doesn't flag anything.

My last machine got infected with a bot and all the while Norton Antivirus/Internet Security said everything was fine!

really good point, Tony. I guess we rely on the forum server to check for that ?

Half the benefit of these forums is learning how to ask your question intelligibly; often clearly thinking of your question will point you toward the answer without actually needing to post it.

I think I will agree with you on this point, Jon, though I'm not sure it necessarily is about whether or not to use a sample workbook. I find that I put a lot more effort into a good sample workbook than I put into a typical spreadsheet for my own use. A lot of this effort is, as you say, trying to understand my question well enough to 1) Ask the question intelligently, 2) try to avoid "tangential" issues that don't address my real question, and 3) Trying to make the spreadsheet easy to understand and follow.

I think that many OP's, with or without a sample spreadsheet, fail on some of these issues. Some seem to make no effort to understand their own problem. With or without a sample spreadsheet, they still don't know what they really should be asking. Because they don't understand their problem, their question ends up going down tangential issues before finding the root problem. Charting problems, in particular, illustrate this. A lot of the time (as I'm sure Jon already knows), a question like "how to create a stacked column chart in excel" actually ends up being about "how do I extract the data I need from this larger database". Because, once the data are extracted and correctly arranged in the spreadsheet, creating the chart is actually quite easy. An OP that has not spent enough time trying to understand how to create the chart type they need never comes to realize exactly what they are asking for.

And, of course, many OP's simply post whatever large and ugly spreadsheet they have, with hundreds of formulas and thousands of references, and expect that us "experts" can simply look at such a web of dependencies and find the obvious problems (good luck with that).

I recall something I learned in a public speaking course. The public speaker in question would say that he needed a lot more preparation for a short speech than a long speech, because it took so much more preparation to identify and prepare the essential points from the fluff. With a long speech, he didn't need to worry about peeling off the outer layers to get at the essence. With a short talk, however, he needed a lot more effort to peel back the outer layers to get at the essential information. I think something similar is at play here, and OP's would be wise to understand that they must put some effort into asking their question, so that they can ask the real question they need answered, whether or not they include a spreadsheet.

I don't know what the best approach is. Like others, if a question seems to broad or difficult to understand (especially when it is obvious the OP has no intention of putting any effort into making the problem understandable), then it is easy enough to ignore.

MrShorty (and Jon), I think you hit the nail on the head with "asking the right question".

On this thread, the OP wanted to "hide" a 0, but the question should have been something like "how to extract specific info"
http://www.excelforum.com/showthread...t=#post4042931

As I have previously mentioned, 1/2 the problem for new users is that they dont even know certain functions exist, let alone how to use them, but defining the problem does indeed help with the focus

I'm starting to think you were right...

http://www.excelforum.com/excel-form...que-value.html

wow yes, really

Can't really disagree with anything that has been said ... how's that for sitting on the fence?

Personally, my preference is a well structured question supplemented by a sample workbook. This helps to clarify my understanding of the OP's requirement and to test the solution I am considering.

I would generally post the formula and/or code in the thread an often upload an updated sample workbook.

I tend to find that improves the resolution time immensely. Works for me anyway. I don't touch threads I don't like the look of, for whatever reason.

This is a really well explained problem: http://www.excelforum.com/excel-prog...rom-above.html

But tricky to offer the ideal solution without an idea of what you are working with and the constraints. Not saying it can't be done ...