Excel forum administration rules and protocol enforcement

[Jack7774]

I completely understand the reason for rules however rules should never disregard the mission or goal of the reason the company, foundation, or in this case website set out to accomplish. Maybe my understanding of the mission or goal of this website is unclear but i thought it was to bring together a community of people who have knowledge in excel along with those who are in need of that knowledge. Most rules have a level of importance. While rules can be broken some rules are easier to fix than others and some less important than others. If the administration staff of this website desires to enforce a set of rules by all means you should and do have every right to do so however my advice is to do it with a certain level or professionalism, curiosity, respect, and given that you are desiring to be visited, used, and even sell paid for services then treat the people who visit the site like clients not like children who when break a rule should not be reprimanded for not following a broad rule and denied an appropriate and dignified response but instead give them a request and suggestion how to fix the rule they broke. A rule like the name your thread title appropriately when that can be taken based on the persons perspective many different ways. Follow this advice that is if you want people to return and not visit one of the many other sites where they can obtain the same information. I hope this isn't deleted and instead is taken seriously.

[FDibbins]

Jack, I see you have decided to take this public. Our discussion in PM seems not to have been to your liking. I have explained to you that our rules are here for all members to abide by, yourself included. They are long-standing, and have evolved to their current state over time.

All forums have rules, some more strict than ours, and others less so.

1 of our rules is that threads be named something descriptive of the problem. A title like "Urgent help needed!!!" hardly meets that requirement.
Another of our rules is that members refrain from posting on a thread that has a moderation on it, until that moderation has been complied with.

Our goal here is indeed to help members with (mainly) excel questions, and the fact that we 1 of the largest excel help forum on the web attests to our success at doing just that.

Perhaps the title change request could have been worded a little differently, but the request would have been made, 1 way or another, and would have needed to be complied with.

[macropod]

Jack7774: I administer/moderate four other forums (not this one) and all have their rules. Anyone joining a forum is required to agree to abide by those rules when they join. You would have been required to agree to this forum's rules when you joined. If you now object to applying the rules you agreed to, the remedy is yours - literally. You'll find most other forums about as welcoming as this one to those who think their rules are demeaning or not worth applying.

[Jack7774]

Again, the entire point was missed because people are taking it as a personal attack rather than constructive criticism. You both feel as if this is about you or even the rules because I sent you a message directly in private posts. A fair point though what I took public wasn't private messages but a point of view that I shared about my perspective on how rules should be followed by all means but they should be enforced in a certain manner given the mission or goal of the organization they are being enforced by. As I stated and will do so again to try and bring clarity please enforce the rules but the words you choose while you refresh a new user or a long time current member of those rules is in my opinion critical. My advice is show respect and treat users new and long time as if they are clients not children who need reprimand.

[macropod]

Jack7774: It is you who has entirely missed the point - or refuse to accept it for what it is. I have never to my knowledge had any prior communication with you, so to claim my response assumes a personal attack arise out of some phantom PM of yours is arrant nonsense.

The onus is on you - just as it is on me - to familiarise yourself with the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum and not to assume that, just because the mods/admins here sometimes let things slide, you're entitled to push the boundaries whenever you feel like it.

[Jack7774]

Jack7774: It is you who has entirely missed the point - or refuse to accept it for what it is. I have never to my knowledge had any prior communication with you, so to claim my response assumes a personal attack arise out of some phantom PM of yours is arrant nonsense.

The onus is on you - just as it is on me - to familiarise yourself with the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum and not to assume that, just because the mods/admins here sometimes let things slide, you're entitled to push the boundaries whenever you feel like it.

You are correct in that you are not responding out of a personal attack however your name is only a few character off of the other gentlemen that I also sent a message to. So for that I apologize for the assumption I made. I still stand behind my statement about you are still missing the point and that it is not about the rules or if they should be enforced but merely how they should be enforced.

While I agree I should read and understand the rules it is unpractical to expect me to not forget a rule a time or two here and there and need a refresher. That is why I said be professional, respectful, and treat users as clients rather than children. As I stated in the PM to Fdibbins my intentions were never to blatantly disregard any rule or rule #7 but I had forgotten the rule as Fdibbins stated I've been a member for 3 years and I should have known better but as he stated it was 3 years ago since I have read them. Which credits the idea that most people can use the forums without having to read the rules over and over again on a daily basis to remind themselves on how to use the forums on a daily basis and can usually go about 500+ posts without having any issues arise if a person tries to use practical knowledge in their responses and or titles for their threads. Its probably a better idea as well to send someone a private PM rather than fill the forum and publicly correct someone about a rule they broke as well. This would also serve to express respect for that person as well. And I'm speaking about the situations were you tell a user to fix a broken rule not this conversation.

[FDibbins]

Jack, for your benefit, as as a reminder for you, 3/4 of the most often-reminded rules on this forum - condensed - and then in full...

1. Use thread titles that explain your problem
7a. when you have been asked by a senior on this forum to do something (like change a title), please do so
7b. dont post on a thread that has a post mentioned in 7a
2. use code tags when posting code (not pertinent in this discussion, but still common)

1. Use concise, accurate thread titles. Your post title should describe your problem, not your anticipated solution. Use terms appropriate to a Google search. Poor thread titles, like Please Help, Urgent, Need Help, Formula Problem, Code Problem, and Need Advice will be addressed according to the OP's experience in the forum: If you have less than 10 posts, expect (and respond to) a request to change your thread title. If you have 10 or more posts, expect your post to be locked, so you can start a new thread with an appropriate title.

7a. Don't ignore requests by Administrators, Moderators, or senior members of the forum. If you are unclear about their request or instructions, then send a private message to them asking for help.

7b. Do not post a reply in a thread where a moderation request (e.g., title change, code tags) is still pending a response. - This applies to the original post and all participants within the thread.

3. Use code tags around code. Posting code without them makes your code hard to read and difficult to be copied for testing. Highlight your code and click the [#] button at the top of the post window (if you are editing an existing post, press Go Advanced to see the [#] button).

[Tony Valko]

Jack7774: It is you who has entirely missed the point - or refuse to accept it for what it is. I have never to my knowledge had any prior communication with you, so to claim my response assumes a personal attack arise out of some phantom PM of yours is arrant nonsense.

The onus is on you - just as it is on me - to familiarise yourself with the rules you agreed to when you joined the forum and not to assume that, just because the mods/admins here sometimes let things slide, you're entitled to push the boundaries whenever you feel like it.

You're validating Jack7774's point by "attacking" him.

[FDibbins]

This is not an excel related question so I am moving it to the water cooler

[Tony Valko]

In addition...

The rule about thread titles is completely subjective.

What's acceptable to one may not be acceptable to another.

I see this on a daily basis.

So, how do you make everyone happy at the same time? You don't (can't)!

[Jack7774]

Jack, for your benefit, as as a reminder for you, 3/4 of the most often-reminded rules on this forum - condensed - and then in full...

Do you feel I need to know these because I have failed to follow each one of these rules? I realize where I broke rule 7b but to the best of my knowledge I haven't broken any of those other rules you mentioned specifically. Another rule we should remember is seen below. Also a suggestion would be to refer someone to the rule number they might have broken and ask them to fix it rather than reply with a BOLD letters and over emphasize the need for rules to be followed and tell them that they won't receive any help until then.

Again the rules were made with the idea in mind for it to help other users when another user is researching a similar issue so that they can find or help them find a solution to their problem. So being sarcastic or reprimanding in our responses to get a rule that is broken fixed is not what I believe the motives or intentions of the people who made them trying to accomplish.

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[FDibbins]

very true Tony

[Jack7774]

You're validating Jack7774's point by "attacking" him.

Thank you for confirming my feelings as I wasn't sure if I should be taking it that way or not given it is in text.

[Tony Valko]

In addition to my addition...

If I were a first time poster and the very first reply I got was...

Your post does not comply with...

I'd be outta here!

[Tony Valko]

This will be my last post in this thread.

FWIW, I would rewrite all of the forum rules.

They are worded such that they give the impression of "heavy-handed moderation".

This point has been made before by others.

[Indi_Ra]

Jack, for your benefit, as as a reminder for you, 3/4 of the most often-reminded rules on this forum - condensed - and then in full...

1. Use thread titles that explain your problem
7a. when you have been asked by a senior on this forum to do something (like change a title), please do so
7b. dont post on a thread that has a post mentioned in 7a
2. use code tags when posting code (not pertinent in this discussion, but still common)

I was warned, by Pepe Le Moko because I have not used code tags. I saw, and I used code tags (2 minutes after I was warned) .However Alansidman gave me a warning (which was subsequently withdrawn all of Alansidman).
Because of the strike, no one has responded to my request. Does it seem right?

See this: http://www.excelforum.com/showthread.php?t=1130136

[FDibbins]

Indi, I have removed those 2 posts so that your thread now has 0 replies - members are often more likely to respond to threads that have not yet been worked on

[AlKey]

I think I have mentioned this a while back the situation regarding thread titles. My views were for the moderators, as they are the most experienced members of the community, to make a suggestion on what the thread's title should be and not just advising to change it. There are many new members that are joining this forum who often have no idea of what the title should be so posting a warning makes very little sense. I am sure that some rules can be revised to make this small change.

[Tony Valko]

This will be my last post in this thread.

On second thought...

I think both of these is very "off putting".

I would eliminate the very first line in every rule:

You post does not comply with...

Also, some individual members add bold formatting and text colors when they post a rule. This makes it look like some kind of "legal notice"!

Good grief!

How it could be done:

Hello (poster name)!

If a relatively new member...

Welcome to ExcelForum!

We welcome your participation and your contributions to our community of Excel enthusiasts. We hope you will visit us on a regular basis.

I would like to request that you do this _______.

Like any other community we have some basic rules that we follow which helps make the forum operate in a more uniform manner.

Here is a link to the forum rules: ________

Thank you for your cooperation. We look forward to seeing you again!

[Tony Valko]

I think I have mentioned this a while back the situation regarding thread titles. My views were for the moderators, as they are the most experienced members of the community, to make a suggestion on what the thread's title should be and not just advising to change it. There are many new members that are joining this forum who often have no idea of what the title should be so posting a warning makes very little sense. I am sure that some rules can be revised to make this small change.

Very good suggestion.

[FDibbins]

I have been playing around with some of the rule wording to see if I can make them a little less intimidating, and a bit more clear/concise. I will put some more effort into this.

[Tony Valko]

Excellent!

That's the kind of feedback we welcome from all levels of the ExcelForum team.

[macropod]

You're validating Jack7774's point by "attacking" him.

Hardly. He falsely asserted there had been some private communication between us. If I'd been attacking him, I'd have used rather stronger language than that.
I also fail to see how, in context, the second block you highlighted could be construed as an attack on anyone. Perhaps you missed the fact that I explicitly included myself in the ambit of that statement...

[Jack7774]

Hardly. He falsely asserted there had been some private communication between us. If I'd been attacking him, I'd have used rather stronger language than that.
I also fail to see how, in context, the second block you highlighted could be construed as an attack on anyone. Perhaps you missed the fact that I explicitly included myself in the ambit of that statement...

That's not in reference to you

[macropod]

That's not in reference to you

Oh, really? So who was 'both' in:

You both feel as if this is about you or even the rules because I sent you a message directly in private posts.

Given the only replies you had received in this thread up till that point were from Ford and me, how is anyone supposed to interpret 'both' as not including me? Seems to me you want to have it both ways.

[FDibbins]

OK, this is heading towards (already there?) personal attacks on each other - that is not going to get anywhere. If we are going to continue this discussion, then lets keep it on topic

[EFmanagement]

Hello Everyone!

We would like to suggest you all that this is not the platform to attack someone individually as this is all in regards of Forum Rules.

@Jack7774 - We understand your concern however you also have to understand that these rules are drafted to ensure the provision of the best possible services to all the members. We would also like to clarify that these rules are not made by any particular individual. These rules were carefully drafted by a team of industry experts to enrich your experience and everyone has to follow these rules including senior members / Gurus / Mods etc.

If existing community members will start arguing about the competency of the forum rules then it would encourage the new family members to not to follow and break all the forum rules. Which in turn would result in an enormous mess on this forum.

We would also request the senior members to not to unnecessarily stretch such issues and arrive on solutions ASAP by mutual understanding.
Also, if anyone has any query or facing any discomfort while using the forum, feel free to write to us at [email protected]. We assure you that we would provide you with best possible guidance to solve any of your problems/queries.

Cheers!
Team Excel Forum

[InvisibleMan]

These rules were carefully drafted by a team of industry experts to enrich your experience and everyone has to follow these rules including senior members / Gurus / Mods etc.

If that were the case, I don't think so many people would get upset by or take exception to their application.

Probably a huge generalisation, given that I don't know the backgrounds of the individuals involved, but my premise would be that, just because someone is an industry expert in Excel/VBA, it doesn't mean they are industry experts in drafting, agreeing and implementing a set of forum rules. Possibly quite the opposite.

Seems to me there has been much discussion, over time, about the wording of the rules and inconsistent interpretation of them. I think Tony Valko's points are well considered and well made. Good to hear that the Administrator is (considering) reviewing them.

All that said, my impression is that Moderation these days is much less heavy handed than it once was. So it seems a shame that Jack7774 appears to have fallen foul of the rules

[EFmanagement]

If that were the case, I don't think so many people would get upset by or take exception to their application.

Probably a huge generalisation, given that I don't know the backgrounds of the individuals involved, but my premise would be that, just because someone is an industry expert in Excel/VBA, it doesn't mean they are industry experts in drafting....

We ensure you that our set of rules and regulations are drafted by not only Excel/VBA experts but are brain stormed by some of the best moderators who have the experience in managing different forums.

These rules are carefully drafted instructions designed with the sole purpose of controlling the process of knowledge sharing and encouraging a healthy flow of information.

Good to hear that the Administrator is (considering) reviewing them...

As for the Administrators of the forum, they are and will always consider the valuable feedback of the members and amend what needs work and has a scope of being perfected.

[snb]

EFmanagement is apparently unaware of this forum's history and why so many moderators left.

I'd suggest to skip this rule completely: 'do not post in a thread after a moderation suggestion'.
Helpers can have taken an hour to devise a 'solution', posting it and found out after posting that there was a moderation request.
Now by helping in this forum they have 'violated te rules'.
Nobody can argue that the functioning of this forum would result in a 'mess' (quoted from EFmanagement), if answering a valid question in this forum is considered not to be a 'violation of the rules'.

[jason.b75]

I have been playing around with some of the rule wording to see if I can make them a little less intimidating, and a bit more clear/concise. I will put some more effort into this.

Noting some of the other comments in this thread, it's not just the wording of the rules that needs tweaking.

Taking 3 of the canned replied available for reminding others of the rules

Title Change:-

Your post does not comply with Rule 1 of our Forum RULES. Your post title should accurately and concisely describe your problem, not your anticipated solution.

Use terms appropriate to a Google search. Poor thread titles, like Please Help, Urgent, Need Help, Formula Problem, Code Problem, and Need Advice will be addressed according to the OP's experience in the forum: If you have less than 10 posts, expect (and respond to) a request to change your thread title. If you have 10 or more posts, expect your post to be locked, so you can start a new thread with an appropriate title.

To change a Title go to your first post, click EDIT then Go Advanced and change your title, if 2 days have passed ask a moderator to do it for you.

Pending Moderation Request:-

(This thread should receive no further responses until this moderation request is fulfilled, as per Forum Rule 7)Your post does not comply with Rule 7 of our Forum RULES. Please do not ignore requests by Administrators, Moderators and senior forum members regarding forum rules.

If you are unclear about the request or instruction then send a private message to them asking for clarification.

All participants:
Please do not post a reply in a thread where a moderator has requested an action that has not yet been complied with e.g Title change or Code tags...etc. Thanks.Welcome to the Forum, unfortunately:

Duplicate Thread:-

This is a duplicate post and as such does not comply with Rule 5 of our forum rules. This thread will now be closed, you may continue in your other thread.

Thread Closed.


Whilst I am guilty of using these stock replies for convenience, I can't help thinking that they give the impression of Draconian enforcement.

The duplicate thread message is maybe not the greatest offender, but is probably the most wrongly phrased, given that the vast majority of users who have that canned reply available to them do not have the administrative privilege to close threads.

[Tony Valko]

Whilst I am guilty of using these stock replies for convenience, I can't help thinking that they give the impression of Draconian enforcement.

Draconian enforcement is the perfect description.

I will NEVER use those as canned replies because they are so poorly crafted.

The duplicate thread message is maybe not the greatest offender, but is probably the most wrongly phrased, given that the vast majority of users who have that canned reply available to them do not have the administrative privilege to close threads.

Like this:

https://www.excelforum.com/showthread.php?t=1132608

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi Jack ( 7774 )

I recently ran in to some Forum Rule Problems making participation generally very difficult thereafter ( Anywhere!!). Maybe a few general points I could add therefore.

_1) Firstly, very importantly, a couple of unfortunate facts of life come in which can throw things off course.
_1a) Despite its widespread use, a written media like the Internet still does not really seem to suit us Humans at all, IMHO (Slowly but surely it appears to be controlling us, frighteningly)
_1b) The first time we make written contact our brain goes a bit haywire as it does not see the facial expressions and environment of the “person” we are communicating with. Our Brain does no favours at this point. Even for experienced people a “picture” is put in the Head of the person and his/ her character. It sticks. It is total chance often if the right Picture is made, ( only slightly can it be correctly guided and influenced by one’s own experience of different characters and how they may “write”). That Picture seems like something almost impossible to change or remove. ( Brain surgery excluded! ).

_2 ) We are lead to believe, and I expect in many cases is, a fact, that the long term regulars here are all working voluntarily. Many are very active helping people at Excel at a rate I can only wonder at. Their “reward” is to have bestowed ( “or inflicted!!” ) powers of Moderation or Administration. To help them in this often unthankful task they often have standard ( canned ) replies, such as the ones that originally caused you some grief. They may simply not always have time to change it a bit to make it more appropriate and this “in perfection” may further lead to the wrong impression discussed in my Point _1)

_3 ) As for “EF Management” and the like. The recent few weeks have been somewhat of an exception and they have made more appearances recently than in the entire History of the Forum.
( Time will tell if this is a permanent policy change or just a quick reaction to the last few Months where clearly the Problems caused many people, including very experienced regulars finally to leave. )

The Point here I am tryong to make, is that although there are “written” Laws, Rules etc. , in the Practice it will be which Admins and Mods that are active at the time and their interpretation and enforcement of the Rules which will determine the “Rule of the Day”. Be careful not to spend too much time trying to effect a change if you intend being a longer term member of the community, as any change may be irrelevant a few months later if a different group of Mods and Admins are active, so to speak, at that time..

_4) Coming back again to your original experiences of, for example, ....a Moderator indicating that no further replies should be made until the OP has fulfilled requests from a Moderator. .. A good Thread Title, to assist in anyone making a later search, may only later be apparent. Some Mods therefore, if they have the time, will wait a bit before asking for the Change. Some, again if they have the time, may advise on a better Title as AlKey suggested in Post #18. - I can add another interesting quick alternative here that i have used that almost sort of satisfies all ( with the current rule ): I have sometimes indeed replied after the Moderators request that none should be made until the Title is changed.. But my “Reply” has been to say I think I have a solution, and I possibly suggest a Title and explain to them how to change the title, after which i say to the OP that I will post my solution..... But again this is all extra “work” for people voluntarily giving their time to help..
Thankfully the Thread is not typically “locked” after the Moderators request, so I was able to use this “solution” . Technically my Reply Type here is against the rules, but because of the exact content it is within the “Spirit” of the rules, I think. Only a minority of People would in the practice consider my Reply a violation, although technically it clearly is****
I have seen that Ford has different canned replies that he tries to make more fitting if/ for new members. Again we must accept he is working at a great rate, and himself recently ( maybe still? ) had / has site access problems )( A last minor point here, usually a request to remove the Posts relating to the Moderators request for change will be done once the requirements are fulfilled. The Post then shows as zero reply, which as noted helps a Thread to be viewed. I would add here it is in the interest of the OP to act promptly here, or otherwise the Thread will be a long way “down” so will not so quickly be picked up, if at all, by a “Zero Reply Search” )

As for Code Tags. Always worth noting ( even if it was not the issue here) , as....It is so easy to use them ,.... but still it seems to take a while before the “penny drops”... I have seen some Mods “give up” now with their canned reply on that: instead they just add the Code tags themselves and be done with it. Again down to the Active Mod at the time. ...
At the end of the Day for those of us from a few hundred to several Thousand Posts, mostly helping people, we really should “see” each other as “friends”. I struggle to see that the motives behind anyone helping in a Forum could be anything else other, than such as to suggest we are all characters that should like each other ? . Shame if the way the rules and their enforcement come across seems to split us up a bit.
_.....................................

Some minor points.

My only very Humble Opinion at all on all this, as regards Rules generally, mostly in the direction of politeness.
I have often been talked down or even downright insulted in Forums due to my ignorance or slowness in picking a point up. Obviously that does hurt a bit. But, IMO, I am nevertheless being helped by people voluntarily who are often very busy helping many others ( who maybe get the point quicker). So I just remain very grateful for their help. Often their experience is worth a Thousand books. I can only apologise for my ignorance and hope they are still tolerant enough and willing to help in the future.
On those lines, I find it slightly off putting that others who I often spent some considerable time helping, do not take a similar attitude to, and try not be offended if my attempts at a bit of humour do not come across too well. But OK we are all different and that is good####

P.s. I see now you have some discussion with macropod. FWIW. I think he is an amazing helpful Guy. Looking at his helpful contributions I can only have respect for him.
He has misunderstood me. He is the result of my “Forum Death”. A classic example maybe, of much of what I have tried to put across here.
I think in this case i possibly could say that he has character that tends to be very strict on the written Rules. ****
####In general I think as Human’s we should be very grateful that the world has such different characters.
If such a person becomes a Moderator it will clearly have a strong influence on the “Rules of the Day”, that is to say the ones that are really enforced.
But such a character can strain the Peaceful co existence. I have been on the blunt side of a strong mismatch to his character.
But he helps voluntarily many people in many Forums. I would not fight to change him of his character. I would fight to the death for him to live in a World where he has the right to be as he is. I guess this is an important necessity for the co-existence of different cultures.
But that can clearly be a challenge.

Alan.

[xladept]

Come on Doc - don't hold back

[InvisibleMan]

I said, a little way back (but not picked up by EF Management) ...

my impression is that Moderation these days is much less heavy handed than it once was.

It is also fair to say that "moderation" is "carried out" by people other than moderators and administrators. Some of those moderations, IMO, can seem somewhat harsh because standard canned replies unedited are used, and little help or advice is offered.

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi Invisible man,
Nice to see you !! Ha Ha !!!

......
It is also fair to say that "moderation" is "carried out" by people other than moderators and administrators......

I expect you are referring to normal members ???? EF management I think have only ever moderated once or twice... ever..!!.).
There is i think no rule about this at Excel Forum, but generally the Report button is for us “Normal mortals”... ( Lol )
_ If you click on it you see this.......
“......to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) missing code tags, poor thread titles posts.....”

Otherwise it can sometimes be taken as “being a back seat Moderator” when us “Mortals” do it. ( moderation
_ . But this is not a big point as I think a polite reminder to an OP to use Code Tags etc.. is OK. ( moderation in moderation )
_ I never used any available ”canned replies”. I did not know there were any available to “Normal “Members. ( I might just have not noticed ). ***
I used a few sometimes of my own that i have stored on a Word Doco and / or refer to some videos etc. that some other members have on things like uploading files.. Mostly that is just to save me writing out over and over again asking for them to give me desensitised, reduced size data, “Befores”, “Afters”... etc... etc...But I would always tend to report things like Duplicate posts with the report button rather than saying anything to the OP. , and as for the Good Title ... i covered all that in my post # 33,
Alan

Edit. *** Tony told me that canned replies are availlable maybe after a certain amount of posts
http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...ml#post4343227
_.. so it is a "non mortal but maybe not as great as a Mod "privledge"" ( or afflicion )

[jason.b75]

Otherwise it can sometimes be taken as “being a back seat Moderator” when us “Mortals” do it. ( moderation
_ . But this is not a big point as I think a polite reminder to an OP to use Code Tags etc.. is OK. ( moderation in moderation )
_ I never used any available ”canned replies”. I did not know there were any available to “Normal “Members. ( I might just have not noticed ). ***

Many forums do have a rule of 'No backseat moderation' or similar, however such a rule is absent here, although rule 7 does effectively cover it.

Please do not ignore requests by Administrators, Moderators and senior forum members regarding forum rules.

I first noticed canned replies available when I went from 'valued forum contributor' to 'forum expert', so would guess that 'senior forum members' refers to anyone with expert or guru status.

If anything, the use of these canned messages by non-moderators should, as you said, serve as a polite reminder rather than a formal moderation request, but, as I pointed out previously, the canned replies do need to be reworded.

[TMS]

Yes, senior members = Experts and Gurus. However, Gurus are expected to moderate any threads to which they wish to contribute. In other words, a Guru MUST, according to the rules of this administration, highlight any rule infringement before providing an answer.

I have to say that, more often than not, I will provide guidance AND offer a solution ... particularly for new users. I, personally, think that is more helpful and welcoming than a simple, unedited Canned Reply.

I can't close threads so I usually take that bit off.

[ben_hensel]

I dunno that the Canned Replies need to be more polite exactly; I mean, they're supposed to be Laying Down The Law on people that aren't abiding by the cultural norms expected of them in exchange for getting free technical support.

Maybe this is a generational thing, but I always assume that people who don't abide by forum rules are just too ignorant to even realize that they're being pretty rude.

However, I think it would help if the reasons why the rules exist is included in the Canned Reply.

For example:

Your post does not abide by Rule #1 requiring descriptive thread titles. If you have 10 or more posts, expect your post to be locked, so you can start a new thread with an appropriate title.

Every thread requires help with a formula or code problem. Titles such as Please Help, Help Needed, Formula Problem, or Code Problem don't actually give prospective responders any information they couldn't assume simply from you posting the thread!

Threads are archived for posterity. Thread titles should be concise and descriptive, using terms appropriate to Google Search, so that people who have the same problem as you in the future can find solved threads and benefit from them.

Describe your problem, not your solution. You do not need to know what the correct formula or technique for solving your problem is. Clearly and concisely name what is not working for you, instead.

To change a Title go to your first post, click EDIT then Go Advanced and change your title, if 2 days have passed ask a moderator to do it for you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Now if OP doesn't fix their title after getting that laid on them, it's clear why they are the jerk, not the Mod Squad. There are dang good reasons that we want a high level of precision in our thread titles; reasons that are not obvious at all to people who are just parachuting in with a question they need help on. But wanting free help without being willing to make the thread future-searchable is, in my view, selfish.

...My views were for the moderators, as they are the most experienced members of the community, to make a suggestion on what the thread's title should be and not just advising to change it.

I agree that this would be ideal - but I would add the caveat that the onus is on the requester, not the moderator, to make sure their thread title is good enough.

[Jack7774]

Hello Everyone!

We would like to suggest you all that this is not the platform to attack someone individually as this is all in regards of Forum Rules. Cheers!
Team Excel Forum

I've not personally attacked anyone that I know of. I was simply replying back to let the gentlemen know it wasn't in reference to him but a misread of a name that was closely related to another person I sent a private message you. I was letting him know because I could tell he seemed to take it personally and I was trying to redirect the emotions so that he could understand it wasn't directed at him.

I appreciate your point to let me know that these were drafted by a team rather than an individual however that doesn't negate my point that how the rules are being enforced by the moderators or administration staff and unfortunately to myself and I can presume many others that they come across as rude sometimes and or a notion of power rather than a motive of wanting to help others fix a problem with the rules so that it will help others find the desired solutions in the future.

My intention was never to argue about the rules but let the administration staff, moderators, and or volunteers of this website that I think the delivery methods in which the rules are being enforced come across as disrespectful, demeaning, and or rude sometimes by no specific individual but in general. Some copy and paste rules and put bold letters in places where its not needed. I suggested better practices for the problems I presented.

If this was drafted and posted by a team then that team should have an open mind and reconsideration if so many people have made it a point and taken the time to present their view of the rules and how they are being presented. Maybe its time the methods of delivery and or the wording of the rules were re-evaluated.

[TMS]

@ben_hensel: Can't really disagree with anything you've said there ... in principle. However, you have to bear in mind that a lot of the people starting threads are new, not only to this forum, but forums in general. And they are not necessarily au fait with the rules of THIS forum.

Let's face it, if you know what you want/need to ask, you'd Google it and get suggestions from a vast array of sources not restrict yourself to one group of, albeit some of the best, people.

So, when people have found their way to EF and plucked up the courage to ask their (badly phrased) question, let's be gentle and not kick them for their trouble.

[Jack7774]

Hi Jack ( 7774 )

I recently ran in to some Forum Rule Problems making participation generally very difficult thereafter ( Anywhere!!). Maybe a few general points I could add therefore........
Alan.

Alan,

1) I'm not sure what this meant in relation to the topic or even understand its point in general. Sorry about that but I will reread it again soon after I have time to process it a bit more.

2) I'm not sure why you think that they aren't being thanked. They receive reputation points and some are even being paid for the time they spend in the commercial forums. To say they don't have the time to respond appropriately while I would sometimes agree if they had the solution to a problem and then had to go however this is a volunteer thing nothing forces you to come and read problems and respond with an answer. So if its going to occur it shouldn't be to much to ask for responses to be delivered with respectful words and considering the end goal in mind to be able to find the solution and its legible. I would expect this to be something they find fun to do not forced to do especially since they are volunteers. Like myself. I also answer posts on here and one day had hope to moderator or even administer it. That might be far gone now though.

3) I wasn't aware anyone left. Most forums with users under 1000 or so don't know what's going on with the moderator and staff. I know this because I have ran organizations before myself.

You said, "Be careful not to spend too much time trying to effect a change if you intend being a longer term member of the community, as any change may be irrelevant a few months later if a different group of Mods and Admins are active, so to speak, at that time.."

I would think you would want your valued members to become staff one day and those people who are to become and are currently moderators or administration with 1000+ posts that they should desire to effect a change and this topic isn't irrelevant. As you can see the number of views and replies is has received in such a short period of time to give that credibility.

4) I appreciate your thoughts and I don't think you are slow but intelligent who thinks before he responds. I appreciate the support by saying you also consider the idea of saying I have the solution but could you fix what the moderator requested first. To me that's excellent! The desired solution and even a catalyst to push a user who desires a solution to fix the issue rather than leave and say this is to much time I will just go somewhere else as many have already. I can't tell you how many posts I see with less than 5 posts and or replies total that never came back.

[Jack7774]

There are dang good reasons that we want a high level of precision in our thread titles; reasons that are not obvious at all to people who are just parachuting in with a question they need help on...

I agree as in searching for something and it being worded correctly helps the next guy with the same problem find the solution otherwise he won't know that HELP!! has a solution to VBA to IE under the title HELP!! lol. Again just saying in case the earlier emphasis wasnt' enough. For me its about wording in the delivery and the tone it sets.

You also mentioned ignorant. Keep in mind people from around the world need help. Cultural differences and even language barriers exist as well.

[Tony Valko]

Don't forget...

I'll bet that 99.99999999% of the posters that have received one of those "Your post does not comply with..." responses did not do it to intentionally "break the rules".

But, those canned replies are worded/formatted (with bold/colored text) in such a way that they make it seem like the poster did something intentionally.

[snb]

And I think it's ridiculous to give any helper an infraction for a helping answer.

[Tony Valko]

FWIW...

If I were a mod/admin (not that I want to be!) I wouldn't use any of the canned rules replies.

[Tony Valko]

And I think it's ridiculous to give any helper an infraction for a helping answer.

+1

----------

[Jack7774]

And I think it's ridiculous to give any helper an infraction for a helping answer.

+1'

Rules are great otherwise there would be chaos.

Something to add about protocol - if a user breaks a rule and then a moderator or administration staff deletes a purposed solution after the responses and the user goes back and fixed it then the solution should be restored. Otherwise a volunteer who spent their time up with a solution is wasted if they don't remember their purposed solution. I did this only to find out that while I was typing my answer a moderator posted while I was posting and then they deleted my response never to be seen again. I then didn't remember the answer because I did some research to find out a possible solution but then it was to late it was gone.

[Tony Valko]

while I was typing my answer a moderator posted while I was posting and then they deleted my response never to be seen again.

That's the ultimate definition of "Draconian moderation".

[zbor]

FWIW...

If I were a mod/admin (not that I want to be!) I wouldn't use any of the canned rules replies.

I thought that too, at the first
But after few thousand of same posts it's just faster to put canned reply.
Of course, they could be better.

(Tony, rest of the post is not pointing at you )

But what I think is most important is to make approach more intuitive.
Users are mostly new.

(I disagree with few post prior that users go away if you point them to the rules.
Most of such users accept those instructions as I do when I come to some forum.
Most of the users, even if everything is by the rule, just come and go.
Out of totaly 28488 pages:
On page 21 of descending posts users has less than 300 posts.
On page 67 (0,23%) less than 100 posts.)

And since they are new they don't read page of rules (I understand that as I wouldn't do that myself when joining some forum).

That's the part Forum should work on and make easier to all: users and moderators.
Making more intuitive approach to first posters and reducing breaking rules in the start should be way to go.

Because some rules are breaken more often than other.
But they must exist.

How other would users know, for example, that they shouldn't ask for breaking up security?!

We can discuss what rules are important and what not. Personally, I think Rule 1 should exist.

[JBeaucaire]

I personally think all the rules, as they are written, cover what we need.

It should be noted that the toned enforcement of those rules including the Canned Replies is mostly a holdover from the prior moderation regime.

I agree the Canned Replies could be friendlier, though there is a completely valid argument for the stern helping moderation, too. I often do not use them at all, writing my own gentler version on the fly. I always change titles and add code tags myself along with a polite note such as:
"Added missing CODE tags. Please read and follow the Forum Rules, link above in the menu bar. Thanks."

Those who know me might agree I mostly try to be a servant moderator when dealing with OPs, it's hard to instruct that in the other moderators, but I wholeheartedly offer that most of the moderation team has been moving in that general direction.

So, I'll work with Ford and see if we can soften the edges a bit on the Canned Replies regarding rules.

_______
For what it's worth, I find everyone has been pretty courteous/civil in the presentation of their opposing viewpoints. In my opinion.

Thanks all, this is a very interesting thread, very informative.

[Doc.AElstein]

Hi Jack,

...... I wasn't aware anyone left.......

It is difficult to give precise figures, but it is I think generally known that after the recent problems**** many have left fully or partially. Some have said so.
http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...or-back-2.html
Others are clearly much more noticeable in other Forums.

_ As for a lot of the rest I said, ...
_.... I guess i was trying to suggest we are all not really too far of the same way of thinking, at least a lot of the time. All a bit down to how we interpret things. I expect if we all met one day we would all change straight away opinions on each other, and in most cases all like each other. Giving free help on a Forum like this must suggest that at least most of us are character that would “get on”.

_ But certainly a rewording of some canned replies seems almost unanimous!!

_ Perhaps i was also indirectly trying to give some support to Ford ( FDibbins ). I do not know the full story of your PM’s and the deleted Posts... But I can tell you in January / February ( you seem to have missed it all ) all hell was lose here at EF****. You should check out posts listed in Post 1 here
http://www.excelforum.com/the-water-...e-or-back.html
back then EF Management were nowhere to be seen. Ford was our main“contact”. And that despite him also being effected such that he had hardly any access, ( and may still be restricted? ). He works here very quickly in the limited time he has here, only catches sometimes the latest posts, inevitable misses some things and as he said himself, may have done / written things a bit differently if he had had more time..

Alan